New level of insta-buddy trouble

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Meng_Tze:
If this would be happening..........we are doomed. Solo diving for everyone......:06:

I'm starting to feel like the heretic in the group but I would disagree with that. Certainly there are terrible buddies out there (hell, we moan about them *all* *the* *time* on Scubaboard). Why, in heaven's name, shouldn't they be taken to task for acts of negligence if they make them?

Maybe this is what we need to get people to take diving in buddy teams seriously....

On the flip side it's bound to make solo diving more acceptable too. After all we should be able to make the choice.....

So to me, hounding bad buddies is all good news. People who dive in teams will be triggered to take their responsibilities seriously and it'll probably break down the taboo on soloing.... With a bit of luck it might even improve training in this area.....
R..
 
catherine96821:
well, PADI (legal department ) told me the biggest mistake they see is operators using the same waiver for Certified divers as for intros. They say the language outlining the divers responsibility for his own dive is fundamentally different than the one most commonly used for people receiving instruction. They claim that your real risk is determined (liability) by which state you are in, as some states have strong liability release laws and some don't. I think if I remember correctly California was favorable for the operator and Hawaii was one of the worst. Whoa, we have Japanese getting in here who haven't understood a word. Nobody ever says "hey, this person does not know English so they can't dive". If they are certed and want to follow the leader, ..off they go. It is just too complicated. Do we want to say we cannot travel and dive where there is a language barrier?...and to what degree? It is endless. The only answer is that people know their own limitations and use their own brains.

Good points Catherine and I agree. The problem is especially evident in resort areas like Hawaii and where I live in Mexico. Let's face it, most people who dive, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, only do about 5 to 10 dives a year, on holiday. These divers are certified but DO need baby-sitting. Most of them, in my experience, don't really have the knowledge to know their own limitations. Hell, some of them don't know how to set up their own tanks. There is, as you say, a follow the leader mentality and the DM is accepting the responsibility of taking care of divers who would not know how to react to a simple problem underwater.
I'm not talking about the people here, it's the people who don't think about diving unless they are on holiday and decide to get wet. They have a C-Card, right?
 
Buddy responsibility doesn't often make it into the court reporters. But here is one case from Washington state: Rasmussen v. Bendotti http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=wa&vol=2001_app/19464-7&invol=3

"To hold a defendant liable for negligence, the plaintiff must show that the defendant proximately caused the plaintiff's injury. Crowe v. Gaston, 134 Wn.2d 509, 514, 951 P.2d 1118 (1998). Proximate cause is generally a question of fact. Hertog v. City of Seattle, 138 Wn.2d 265, 275, 979 P.2d 400 (1999). Here, the trial court, sitting as the fact finder, found that any negligence on the part of Eugene Bendotti was "too attenuated" from Bonny Jo Bendotti's death to hold Gene legally liable. Gene was Bonny's scuba diving buddy. He failed to properly attach a power inflator to his buoyancy compensator. This required an emergency ascent. Bonny then drowned after her equipment became entangled in a rope. We conclude that the trial court's finding is adequately supported by the evidence, and affirm the judgment dismissing Cully, Adam, and Brandy Jo Rasmussen's wrongful death suit."

Reading further into it, the appeals court simply accepted the trial court's conclusion that buddying up does create a duty of care. They even accepted that Gene's failure to attach his power inflator (and catch it in a pre-dive check) was negligence. And they refused to grant him an exception to his duty to care based on his emergency ascent (since the ascent was a result of his negligence).

But you know what? They still tossed the thing out. Why? Proving negligence is not enough. The plaintiff also has to prove that the injury would not have occurred even if the defendant had not acted negligently.

"Here, the question simply put is if Gene had properly connected his power inflator would Bonny be alive today? The court held that the connection between Gene's breach and Bonny's death was too attenuated to say that had he connected his power inflator she would still be alive. The evidence amply supports this fact.

Jon Hardy, a scuba diving expert, testified that there was no connection between Gene's failure to attach his power inflator and Bonny's subsequent entanglement. Nor did he believe there was a connection between the loss of buddy contact and Bonny's death. He further stated that he believed the proximate cause of Bonny's death was her failure to carry a dive knife.

How Bonny became entangled and why she was not able to free herself is not known. Also unknown is whether Gene could have saved her in any event. So, whether Gene could have saved her is speculation. And speculation is not sufficient to establish proximate cause."

The upshot of all this is.... act anywhere near reasonably and you'll be fine. Did you really expect anything else? Still, the duty to care is real (in Washington state anyway), so if you have reservations about an insta-buddy, you do have a reasonable legal argument for refusing the pairing.
 
FWIW, I think the court was right on the money here.

The Dive Op should have verified that the diver was qualified to do the dive. Since it was by definition, a deco dive (145' for 20 minutes), no rec divers are qualified. This would have stopped the problem before it ever started.

Having a qualified buddy, would also have stopped the problem, since they would have sat out the dive, or done a much shallower dive, based on their training and equipment.

The chances of two people being really stupid at the same time is less than it is for one, and I'm glad the dive op got sued.

That said, if you kick Darwin in the b**** often enough, eventually he's going to come for you.

Terry

ItsBruce:
a duty to assign a buddy. I could also see an attorney arguing that this case establishes what a buddy’s duty is, namely to “assume responsibility for monitoring and assisting the other member of the ‘buddy’ team.” I could also see another court adopting the arguments. Were that to happen, it would mean that a buddy who does not monitor and assist another member of the buddy team, could be held liable in the event of an injury.

I’m not particularly worried about being sued when my buddy is one of my own choosing. But, the court’s comments give real cause for concern when one gets paired up with a stranger. Maybe I’m being paranoid, but for as sue-happy as society has become, I think I'm justified in being concerned.

I will consider the feasibility of requiring that an insta-buddy sign a liability waiver before a dive. Depending on what I find, I may address this further.
 
I have pretty much decided I am done with buddies folks. Except for people who think like me, Dennis, JB, that sort. You can have my divemaster rating, I really, seriously am done with it ALL. It is a big fat trainwreck. You know why I don't practice nursing anymore?? I considered myself a topgun, experienced RN. One of the best out there. Well, the liabilty was too much scraping people up off the freeway. My husband made enough money that it was not worth the risk to lose our house and my kids education. You know why he doesn't help American poor kids? Liability. He goes to central America and Viet Nam to fix poor kids. He cannot help poor Americans because of the liability. That's how it is folks....flush us all out of what we love and want to contribute. It really pisses me off. trust me, I will not be leading any more dives with all this crap. I had already decided anyway...not renewing. Solo it is, hopefully with people of like mind. Thanks for all of you that helped me see more clearly. It scares me all this " there need to be more lawsuits."
Pretty soon, the only people that will consider this job is someone who has no education and just wants to yank octupi out of their holes and put on a little pony show for 7 dollars an hour...that's what you are going to get. You know why no one delivers babies in the country anymore? because if there is a bad outcome, it has to be somebody's fault. So all the doctors have said screw it and they go for more lucrative jobs. There is a big picture out there and it is really frightening how many people don't seem to see it. Sorry, if I sound bitter, I am, on this one.
 
Diver0001:
I'm starting to feel like the heretic in the group but I would disagree with that. Certainly there are terrible buddies out there (hell, we moan about them *all* *the* *time* on Scubaboard). Why, in heaven's name, shouldn't they be taken to task for acts of negligence if they make them?

Maybe this is what we need to get people to take diving in buddy teams seriously....

On the flip side it's bound to make solo diving more acceptable too. After all we should be able to make the choice.....

So to me, hounding bad buddies is all good news. People who dive in teams will be triggered to take their responsibilities seriously and it'll probably break down the taboo on soloing.... With a bit of luck it might even improve training in this area.....
R..
I would say that the issue is two fold:

Dive with buddies you trust:
I will not get 'buddied up' just like that on any dive trip/boat. Like I have said many times before in other threads.... you dont know how this person is goin to react, what their mindset will be in an emergency and if they have the skills anyway. Passive Panic is the worst..... A bad buddy is a bad buddy because you let them be your buddy

Assume responsibility and accountability for ones own actions:
Litigation only exists in these cases where people are not willing to assume this for themselves. It is always someone else's fault. Diving is inherently dangerous, we can not breathe under water, have gasses, toxicity, pressures etc to deal with. This means that you should also take the risks and outcomes of that for yourself. It may be a fault in equipment, okay, the equipment did not function as it was supposed to. That is a fair case. The coffee burned me because I dropped it in my lap...... ***. Coffee is supposed to be hot! You dropped it after you purchased it. When I grew up I was told that if I do something stupid, or dangerous, I should be ready to take the outcome....that is what my parents viewed as growin up, becoming an adult.

This world is falling apart at a social level because of stupendous litigation. The courts also dont help by continuing to allow these cases to be heard.
There was one case in the UK a few years back, when a judge threw out a case and warned the filing lawyer that if he ever showed his face something stupid like that agian, he'd have him barred...


Enough rambling now.
 
Meng, both terrific points and that sums up the argument for me. I use the buddy system to the point we are both in the same ocean. Not that I don't dive with groups sometimes but the places I dive I'm usually alone or with a non diver so I've had to rely on myself.
That said, I was just in the Philippines diving with some people from this board, including the PPD and I did trust them but as you point out, the bottom line is I'm responsible for me.
So many times in resort settings I see divers on their first dive of their holiday, all giggly and excited which is great but they pay no attention to the dive briefing and let the DM or instructor put all their gear on for them and don't even check their own gear let alone do a buddy check before they fall back into the water in ignorant bliss. They scare me....
 
Meng_Tze:
I would say that the issue is two fold:

Dive with buddies you trust:
I will not get 'buddied up' just like that on any dive trip/boat. Like I have said many times before in other threads.... you dont know how this person is goin to react, what their mindset will be in an emergency and if they have the skills anyway. Passive Panic is the worst..... A bad buddy is a bad buddy because you let them be your buddy

Assume responsibility and accountability for ones own actions:
Litigation only exists in these cases where people are not willing to assume this for themselves. It is always someone else's fault. Diving is inherently dangerous, we can not breathe under water, have gasses, toxicity, pressures etc to deal with. This means that you should also take the risks and outcomes of that for yourself. It may be a fault in equipment, okay, the equipment did not function as it was supposed to. That is a fair case. The coffee burned me because I dropped it in my lap...... ***. Coffee is supposed to be hot! You dropped it after you purchased it. When I grew up I was told that if I do something stupid, or dangerous, I should be ready to take the outcome....that is what my parents viewed as growin up, becoming an adult.

This world is falling apart at a social level because of stupendous litigation. The courts also dont help by continuing to allow these cases to be heard.
There was one case in the UK a few years back, when a judge threw out a case and warned the filing lawyer that if he ever showed his face something stupid like that agian, he'd have him barred...


Enough rambling now.


Well....I live in a country where stupid lawsuits don't have a chance so I guess I can't really connect to your frame of reference. To me the issue is really simple. If someone does something galactically negligent they should have to face the consequences. If you act like you *know* a buddy should act then that's your best defense against problems.

Taking personal responsibility in the context of a team, therefore, isn't any different to me than showing personal responsibility at any other time....you do what you think is right and you listen to the little alarm bells and take action when they start to ring....

As for diving with insta-buddies. I guess from my perspective there are two things to be said about that

(1) Because I dive with rank beginners on a regular basis, I can't imagine a certified diver being any worse than a training dive. I've seen quite a lot and I think I might have a different baseline for acceptance of (and responding to) and unskilled buddy than divers who don't train other divers. I've had some really terrible buddies on vacation but I don't try to force them into doing things that (a) they're not ready for or (b) into magically becoming a better diver because *I* happen to be their buddy. I look at what they can do and I adjust *my* dive to suit *their* level. This sounds so obvious but a lot of the problems I see beginners having start when they try to keep up to a more experienced buddy who isn't being flexible....

(2) I'm not the kind of person to "stick it out at all costs". I've got a whole bunch of diving experience and bottom-time just isn't my main goal in life.....I'm out there to have fun and if I see a dive getting pear-shaped then I'm quite happy to call it and take my buddy (by their ear if necessary) back to the surface. I think a lot of divers get in trouble when they get too focused on bottom time to think about what they're doing....Often times I'll be the more experienced diver in an insta-buddy team and I feel that this bit of judgement-calling is part of my responsibility. In a sense I do what one of the other posters was so worried about and I accept a duty of care. For me it's so obvious that you should do this that I can hardly imagine why someone wouldn't.....

R..
 
I spend one day in the field and I miss six pages of the topic that has keep me up until 3 in the morning reading case law on Lexis and Westlaw... Blimey!

Bruce, I like the way you've set the table for discussion. Well done, sir. The temptation to begin another article has to eating you alive right now. :)

I think that every single post has been correct in some sense thus far. Do the implications suck? Yes. Has the likelihood of lawsuit increased in since Tancredi? Not particularly. Is this worth talking about? Yes. And is the liability a load of %$#? No.

There is a minimum stand of care. One that divemasters as a clan have cultivated on their own over the years and one that the courts have established. I think it's useful for a divemaster to know about this case if just to assess when their own standard of care is out of sync with the court's and think carefully about why. It might indicate error and it might be for a darn good reason. Critical thinking is a divers best friend.

Also, at least it's known to all that these lawsuits do exist.

JB
 

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