New Diver? Want Gear? Read this First!

[Quarrior]

Sure sounds like good advice but this always falls short in reality. Part of test driving a car is to try features that you are actually qualified to assess. Pieces of dive equipment, like regulators, are tested and rated by the manufacturers on special equipment because it is very hard to quantify otherwise. With all of the vast experience you had with renting, how many different regs did you try? Was there a specific reg that didn't do what it was supposed to do, which is to deliver a breathing gas, on demand, in a quantity sufficient for the current enviroment's requirement? If any specific reg seemed substandard, do you know if it was poorly adjusted or maintained or just a bad design? Did you breath any two regs side by side at a specific depth? Under heavy stress? At 150'? In my area, you won't find top end gear for rent anywhere so that advice to move along is BS. The bottom line is that even Dacor regs, which this board seems to dislike, will do just fine, service issues aside, if no one tells you differently. They would have been sued out of existance if this wasn't true. Just to test your rent first beliefs: As an example, the new Poseidon Xstream Deep regs are highly regarded, at least by this board and the product reviews I've seen. Have you ever actually seen one for sale in a LDS? How about for rent? Would you be willing to test this, as a rental reg, to it's limits, in order to assess it's capabilities?

I think you are digging to deep on this thing. The bottom line is, if you go to your LDS and ask which equipment would be best for you and they point you in the direction of a particular piece or pieces of gear, you should say, "great, let me rent or try out some." If the LDS says they don't rent the gear they want you to buy, then go find another LDS.

You can have the best made and most expensive gear in the world, but, if it is not comfortable, you're likely not going to use it long and then be stuck with it because the LDS won't take it back once it's been wet.

 

[yknot]

Let me start by saying, I’m a relatively new diver myself, thus, I feel I’m pretty qualified to give the advice below.

First, when it comes to making a decision on what piece of life support equipment (BC and reg) to buy; rent, rent, rent, and rent some more.

Keep in mind asking a question on the board like, “which reg should I buy?” is like being a new driver and asking “which car should I buy?” Everyone has their own preference and good reasons for liking it, but in reality it really is up to you.

If someone tells you one reg breathes better than another reg, can you believe them? Can you tell the difference? I think not, if you have not used both. Even then, as a new diver, you probably wouldn’t be able to tell unless you have done a lot of dives with them. But, you’ll be able to say, “I have experience with them and my feelings about them is….”

After renting some gear for a while, you’ll be in a position to ask questions on the board like, “I’ve used this particular piece of gear and feel this…., what does everyone think of it?”

Before you think I am digging too deep, I have to refute your first post. You presume yourself to be qualified to give new divers advice. Then you give bad advice. You tell them to rent, which in reality doesn't prove much. Every thing you rent will be good, some may be great, but it's difficult to COMPARE. As a new diver, take the worlds best reg into a cold dark quarry and throw in some bouyancy problems. A month later, rent a so-so reg in the tropics during a spectacular dive. Can you separate the peripheral differences between the two dives while evaluating the equipment?

According to you, divers are more qualified to ask opinions after they've rented it. If you are asking for opinions, why rent in the first place? The reality with most LDS' is that the rental gear is rugged no-frills stuff aimed at the lowest common denominator. I wouldn't expect them to have the high end stuff for rent. I also expect that high end equipment will be good, in most cases and you don't need to subject yourself to the cost and inconvienince of renting to prove it.

 

[rescuediver009]

Ok, I think that you both have points to an extent, but also falter elsewhere.

If the LDS says they don't rent the gear they want you to buy, then go find another LDS.

Are you saying that I should have rented an ATX50 before I bought mine? I don't know of an LDS in the country that rents those. So yeah I think that you should try gera before buying, but not necessarily the one you are going to buy. Even if all you do by renting is eliminate a reg from your options, then you have accomplished something and like I said earlier you will have a greater appreciation for your new one.

You can have the best made and most expensive gear in the world, but, if it is not comfortable, you're likely not going to use it long and then be stuck with it because the LDS won't take it back once it's been wet.

I agree with this if you buy and don't like it, it is your own silly fault.

Then again....

You presume yourself to be qualified to give new divers advice. Then you give bad advice. You tell them to rent, which in reality doesn't prove much. Every thing you rent will be good, some may be great, but it's difficult to COMPARE. As a new diver, take the worlds best reg into a cold dark quarry and throw in some bouyancy problems. A month later, rent a so-so reg in the tropics during a spectacular dive. Can you separate the peripheral differences between the two dives while evaluating the equipment?

I agree a new diver while they may have some valid point don't know all there is to know about gear selection especially if they are giving bad or untrue advice. And although it is a fair generalization about the conditions in which are best to analyze a reg's performance, is it still just that. A generalization.

According to you, divers are more qualified to ask opinions after they've rented it. If you are asking for opinions, why rent in the first place? The reality with most LDS' is that the rental gear is rugged no-frills stuff aimed at the lowest common denominator. I wouldn't expect them to have the high end stuff for rent. I also expect that high end equipment will be good, in most cases and you don't need to subject yourself to the cost and inconvienince of renting to prove it.

again a generalization, you cannot pressure that everyone's LDS has crappy low end rental gear. Most are ok condition sherwood or moderate scubapro's. It is only when you run into the obsolete dacors that you can say that. But I strongly disagree that renting is a waste of money. It doesn't give you any appreciation for your own gear, and then you will wind up a guy on Scubaboard telling everyone it is the best when you know nothing other than your Sherwood Brut that you frequent the local quarry with.

 

[yknot]

again a generalization, you cannot pressure that everyone's LDS has crappy low end rental gear. Most are ok condition sherwood or moderate scubapro's. It is only when you run into the obsolete dacors that you can say that. But I strongly disagree that renting is a waste of money. It doesn't give you any appreciation for your own gear, and then you will wind up a guy on Scubaboard telling everyone it is the best when you know nothing other than your Sherwood Brut that you frequent the local quarry with.

I never said that rental gear was crap, just doesn't tend to be high end. The rental gear in a lot of shops seems to also be the student gear and that does get a fair amount of use and abuse. Out of a total of 6 LDS' in my area, one is a SP dealer and I don't know what they rent. The rest all sell some combination of AquaLung, Genesis and Oceanic. Common rental regs are Titans, SP4/Alpha 7's and Yukons. Nothing wrong with any of these when used in conditions suited for new or infrequent divers. Also part of my point that as a rental, I couldn't find enough fault with any of these models to cause me to no longer consider their respective brands. It would be a reasonable assumption that the higher end models within these brands would be at least as good as the low end.

The best reason I would ever give someone for renting is when they can't afford a gear package or aren't going to dive enough to justify the expense of owning. To use renting as a precursor to buying, you would already need to have an idea of what you want, otherwise you end up with the brands and models a LDS is suggesting.

 

[rescuediver009]

I never said that rental gear was crap, just doesn't tend to be high end. The rental gear in a lot of shops seems to also be the student gear and that does get a fair amount of use and abuse. Out of a total of 6 LDS' in my area, one is a SP dealer and I don't know what they rent. The rest all sell some combination of AquaLung, Genesis and Oceanic. Common rental regs are Titans, SP4/Alpha 7's and Yukons.

There is nothing wrong with the Alpha regs they are well suited for depth and high flowrates. The titan is the newer generation of the legendary conshlef which was a high performance and reliable reg. I regularly see titans in use by divers in cold past 100ft. and they perform great.

Nothing wrong with any of these when used in conditions suited for new or infrequent divers.

I have seen people purchase these regs and use them more than infrequently and these people are alot more experienced. Have you ever even tried any reg other than your own to be able to give an opinion let alone one of these regs?

Also part of my point that as a rental, I couldn't find enough fault with any of these models to cause me to no longer consider their respective brands.

Well that is good to know that you wouldn't discount an entire brand name because of one entry level reg.

It would be a reasonable assumption that the higher end models within these brands would be at least as good as the low end.

Assumption? Yeah and that is likely where it ends too. What you are saying is that it is reasonable to assume that (using Scubapro as an example as it seems to be one of the few things you are familiar with) the high end MK25-S600 is at least as good as the lower end MK2-R190. when in actual fact it is likely 3 times the performer. That is prety silly to be saying that.

The best reason I would ever give someone for renting is when they can't afford a gear package or aren't going to dive enough to justify the expense of owning.

There are alot more reasons to be renting. What about considering an upgrade or a more locally popular model for convenienceof service?

To use renting as a precursor to buying, you would already need to have an idea of what you want, otherwise you end up with the brands and models a LDS is suggesting

If you have an idea of what you want and what it performs like then why would you waste the time and money of renting? Thats kina dumb. the whole idea of talking to a professional is to see which regulator best matches your diving and needs. That way you don't end up just buying the top of the line reg for mediocre diving and then end up on scubaboard giving advice to people when you really know nothing more than what is in your hands. The unfortunate thing is that some people classing themselves as professionals are alot more influential on the new divers asking the questions. That is why you get the guy diving the 50 ft. quarries that absolutely loves his MK25-s600 that he hasn't taken to half of its potential and wouldn't know the difference between this and another reg half the price...

 

[yknot]

There is nothing wrong with the Alpha regs they are well suited for depth and high flowrates. The titan is the newer generation of the legendary conshlef which was a high performance and reliable reg. I regularly see titans in use by divers in cold past 100ft. and they perform great. I have seen people purchase these regs and use them more than infrequently and these people are alot more experienced. Have you ever even tried any reg other than your own to be able to give an opinion let alone one of these regs? Well that is good to know that you wouldn't discount an entire brand name because of one entry level reg. Assumption? Yeah and that is likely where it ends too. What you are saying is that it is reasonable to assume that (using Scubapro as an example as it seems to be one of the few things you are familiar with) the high end MK25-S600 is at least as good as the lower end MK2-R190. when in actual fact it is likely 3 times the performer. That is prety silly to be saying that.

There are alot more reasons to be renting. What about considering an upgrade or a more locally popular model for convenienceof service? If you have an idea of what you want and what it performs like then why would you waste the time and money of renting? Thats kina dumb. the whole idea of talking to a professional is to see which regulator best matches your diving and needs. That way you don't end up just buying the top of the line reg for mediocre diving and then end up on scubaboard giving advice to people when you really know nothing more than what is in your hands. The unfortunate thing is that some people classing themselves as professionals are alot more influential on the new divers asking the questions. That is why you get the guy diving the 50 ft. quarries that absolutely loves his MK25-s600 that he hasn't taken to half of its potential and wouldn't know the difference between this and another reg half the price...

You've missed the entire point of my previous posts. The one brand I am NOT familiar with is ScubaPro. I have used a lot of the other brands and models and have yet to try even an entry point model made by a major manufacturer that was unsatisfactory. As the "better" models within a line are not usually available for rental and therefore comparison, what would "rent, rent and rent some more" (as stated in orig. post) prove, besides that it's pretty much all good. By the time a new diver has rented half a dozen regs in my area they would be half way to buying a Titan. Then they end up with an ATX200 anyway, not based on actually trying one, but from the LDS and Scubaboard opinions. If that's where someone is headed, why rent?

 

[rescuediver009]

You've missed the entire point of my previous posts. The one brand I am NOT familiar with is ScubaPro. I have used a lot of the other brands and models and have yet to try even an entry point model made by a major manufacturer that was unsatisfactory. As the "better" models within a line are not usually available for rental and therefore comparison, what would "rent, rent and rent some more" (as stated in orig. post) prove, besides that it's pretty much all good. By the time a new diver has rented half a dozen regs in my area they would be half way to buying a Titan. Then they end up with an ATX200 anyway, not based on actually trying one, but from the LDS and Scubaboard opinions. If that's where someone is headed, why rent?

Please, don't insult me by saying i have missed the point. I know exactly what you are talking about and that is why I am making such a point to dispute it. How can you say that all the brands are the same on one hand and then turn around and say that you have tried alot of them. Everyone knows that each diver will have their own preference on a regulator. They will look at ergonomics, breathability, and general feel. I never said rent rent rent. I said rent, think, discuss, rent again or buy. I think that your words preceed your experience in not only regulator selection but diving in general. If everyone buys ATX200's that is their problem. Those are the divers that are confused with the fact that the breathability of the reg does not excel a sherwood magnum at 20ft. but at 200. I think that this is a dead issue now. I'm done