New Diver injured in training...who is responsible?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Well there are no Tort laws in the carribien. Therefore, no ones at fault. She should see a hyperbaric physician when she gets home.
Once your outside US territorial waters, your on your own. No US Coast Guard standards. Or SCUBA police. Sorry.
I was under the understanding that whilst on a cruise ship, or in an airplane for that matter you are still bound to the federal laws of the operator's country of origin. Take for example people getting married on cruise ships, attestation of legal documents, that is only possible under legal jurisdiction of a court covering the territory you're on.
I may be totally wrong but that is my interpretation of it, or else you can just as well murder someone in international waters.
 
Does that vary with agency? I had some cousins with me in Bermuda who did a very thorough and (I thought) well done DSD. They did the "pool" portion in the small sound that the resort was on, off the beach, in about 3 feet of water. This wasn't open ocean, basically a salt water lake. Then they took them out on a boat for a reef dive.
The standards allow some substitution. Shallow confined area can some times be substituted for a pool. A quarry for example can have a shallow area with a rope marking off the boundaries in place of a pool. Do not know in this case if the absence of a pool is required to do the substitution.
 
The standards allow some substitution. Shallow confined area can some times be substituted for a pool. A quarry for example can have a shallow area with a rope marking off the boundaries in place of a pool. Do not know in this case if the absence of a pool is required to do the substitution.
If don in open water the open water is supposed to have pool-like conditions. If that is not available, there are very specific substitutions that can be made. We still do not know what agency was used, so we do not know the specific standards for the course.
 
I was under the understanding that whilst on a cruise ship, or in an airplane for that matter you are still bound to the federal laws of the operator's country of origin. Take for example people getting married on cruise ships, attestation of legal documents, that is only possible under legal jurisdiction of a court covering the territory you're on.
I may be totally wrong but that is my interpretation of it, or else you can just as well murder someone in international waters.

I heard a slightly different version of this. It is not the "origin" nor the "destination". The ship is a territory of which the ship is registered to. Maybe someone can confirm this.

The issue is most cruise ships (probably all of them), are not registered to United States, even the cruise company is a US company and operating in US. Maybe it is for tax or some legal advantages.
 
I had 2 maritime lawyers on a charter one time that told me No release of liability can release anyone from an action they caused. And a release wasn't worth the paper it was written on. If she was under instruction I would think the instructor could be liable. I am by no means a lawyer. Once you leave the boat on a charter if you are certified your on your own. If the boat operator runs over you trying to pick you up it's his ass, Release or not. Good luck whatever happens, hoping for a complete recovery.
 
I had 2 maritime lawyers on a charter one time that told me No release of liability can release anyone from an action they caused. And a release wasn't worth the paper it was written on. If she was under instruction I would think the instructor could be liable.
As an instructor, my understanding is that the liability waiver is helpful in preventing what might be called nuisance lawsuits, the kind where you are obviously not at fault for anything, but it will be of little help if I screw up.
 
As an instructor, my understanding is that the liability waiver is helpful in preventing what might be called nuisance lawsuits, the kind where you are obviously not at fault for anything, but it will be of little help if I screw up.

Yep that's it. That makes the paperwork worth about 2 cents, less labor to write it.
 
The key is that the waiver is also a assumption of risk... That way the person can't say they didn't know it could go bad.. People need to take the responsibility for what they want to do... If not, Sit at home on the couch.... And , I'm not saying that there are not bad operations and boats... Most of the time it's just the way it is... A ACCIDENT....

Jim....
 
AFAIK, all sovereign states law claims to their citizens (and residents and slaves and whatever) and exert their own laws over them--unless they are in another sovereign state's territory. And when a commercial vessel is flagged (titled, or in the US, "documented") in a sovereign territory, the rules of that territory bind it when it is in international waters, or airspace. That's by tradition as well as the laws of the various nations.

That's all general but unless there are specific conditions or variations from a sovereign state or treaty obligations...that's it. Holland America Line is now a subsidiary of the Carnival Cruise corporation, which is based in Seattle. But most or all of the fleet is still flagged in the Netherlands (some were based in other places but I think those are all gone now) so the ship would generally follow Dutch law when in international waters. Contract responsibilities, i.e. to provide due care and a safe environment to the passengers, might follow US law since Carnival is a US corporation.

But the dive operator will be governed by laws in wherever the dive was. And the question of their responsibility versus Carnival's, or Holland America's... Your local attorney will NOT have a solid grasp on the venue issues and those will be critical.

Likewise the waiver's importance or validity will depend on exactly what it said (the attorney will require a copy) as well as the local laws governing such waivers, which could also vary depending on whether any degree of negligence (gross, ordinary, or intentionally ignoring a known issue, etc.) is involved. Again, that will vary with the location.

And then there's the question of exactly what happened, which will be "he said she said" in some places, while in others it will be presumed that the instructor "fiddling" with gear was responsible. Under US law we're taught "guilty until proven innocent" but if the incident took place somewhere that has a French legacy and follows the Napoleonic Code...it often is "Guilty unless proven otherwise".

There are too many crucial factors involved. As others have said, get a damned good attorney who has some grasp of what will be required. Don't be surprised if they refer you to someone more experienced than they are. Don't be surprised if they file suit against all parties, and let the parties slug it out. Do expect this will not be a simple "you only pay us if we win" case.

And again, as others have said, do not have any contact with any parties except your attorney. Since attorneys know how to go online and do searches as well...I would suggest not posting any comments that might be taken as an admission or statement of anything material in the matter. (Which means just about everything.) I expect the attorney will tell you the same thing.

DAN is between a rock and a hard place, they have to work with the various dive agencies. So while they're a great source of information (medical and otherwise) again, don't expect them to say that what any agency teaches or requires is or isn't proper or safe.
 
The key is that the waiver is also a assumption of risk... That way the person can't say they didn't know it could go bad.. People need to take the responsibility for what they want to do... If not, Sit at home on the couch.... And , I'm not saying that there are not bad operations and boats... Most of the time it's just the way it is... A ACCIDENT....

Jim....
It is possible to run a dive in more or less risky ways. Agency or shop standards will try to keep the risk down to some level which is acceptable. A complete novice student under instruction has literally no idea about the risk and is not in a position to understand what accepting the risk means.

The "he says she says" part does not matter. What actually happened in the water does not matter. What matters is the outcome and whether that was foreseeable given the circumstances. If the cause was panic and doing the wrong thing on the part of the student but that panic is a reasonable thing to expect and could have been mitigated by using a pool first then it looks like the instructor is responsible.

I will be checking for 'uncontrolled descent, failing to clear ears' in my risk assessment.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom