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You can add a mix to the Liquivision underwater, and it will calculate your profile based on what you are breathing. But the gas supply issues are something which has to be pre-planned.

I would highly recommend Mark Powell's book cited above. Understanding, on a global level, what the planning tools you use (whether they are DecoPlanner, Vplanner, or something entirely other) are doing, and what your computer is trying to do, gives you the insight to make the best use of your tools.

I plan and execute my rare staged decompression dives without a computer, but I run Vplanner on my Liquivision as a sanity check/last ditch brain fart insurance. The people who say that reliance on a computer makes you lazy are to some extent right. But if you do your due diligence, I see no problem with having more information with you underwater, so long as your use of it is thoughtful. (On the other hand, it's annoying as all get-out if your buddy's computer is calling for more deco than you planned or think you need to do, and the water is 41 degrees . . . unfortunately, I know this.)
 
Are you taking GUE Fundementals and eventually GUE Tech1? Or some other tech course?

Due to my geographic and work schedule limitations, I plan to start Padi Tech Training here in Little Rock in March. I hope to have a good chuck of Padi 40, 45, and 55 done before the 1st of June. AT that time I plan to take a weeks vacation and do the Fundies course in Florida. Not the idea way to go but somebody has to live in a land locked states.

---------- Post added February 1st, 2013 at 08:15 PM ----------

A bit of advice on buying a new computer for Tec training. Make sure you know how to use it BEFORE starting class. know where all the functions are and what they do, backwards and forwards. There's going be a very abrupt learning curve already and a lot to get done (especially in Tec 40). you want to make things as simple as possible, this does not include trying to figure out how to switch gasses on your computer while your instructor is blasting you with drills.

with that said, you probably misunderstood the instructor you were speaking with. although, a tech instructor that openly admits not being up to date on relatively current equipment (the x1 has been around for 4 years or so), he may actually be clueless enough to think computers wont recalculate deco in lost gas scenarios.

I strongly suggest using bottom timers for Tec 40, play with a few different desktop planners, and then choose a computer that runs an algorithm your comfortable with.

Thanks will do.

---------- Post added February 1st, 2013 at 09:28 PM ----------

You can add a mix to the Liquivision underwater, and it will calculate your profile based on what you are breathing. But the gas supply issues are something which has to be pre-planned.

I would highly recommend Mark Powell's book cited above. Understanding, on a global level, what the planning tools you use (whether they are DecoPlanner, Vplanner, or something entirely other) are doing, and what your computer is trying to do, gives you the insight to make the best use of your tools.

I plan and execute my rare staged decompression dives without a computer, but I run Vplanner on my Liquivision as a sanity check/last ditch brain fart insurance. The people who say that reliance on a computer makes you lazy are to some extent right. But if you do your due diligence, I see no problem with having more information with you underwater, so long as your use of it is thoughtful. (On the other hand, it's annoying as all get-out if your buddy's computer is calling for more deco than you planned or think you need to do, and the water is 41 degrees . . . unfortunately, I know this.)[/QUOTE

TSandM thanks for the insight and I ordered the Deco for Divers today. If you and the other contriibuters to this thread don' mind after I've finished the book and am closer to purchasing a computer I may want to pick your brains further.
 
I will be the anti technology " devils advocate ". I am not familiar with the padi route, but I will tell you that buying a computer should be the last thing on your mind at your level. I was not allowed to use a puter for training, BT only. After training I continued to cut tables for at least 100 staged dives. I learnrd alot from that excercise. During the time I was cutting tables, I saw 3 puters come and go. The x1, predator, vr3. Technology is moving really fast, by the time you are ready to fly a puter for staged diving, who knows what will be available.

When I was ready, I looked backwards for features I wanted in a puter, and dive it as a sanity check for my grey matter puter. I settled on a cochran emc 20H. All the features I wanted, and the price point was 25% of any of the newest, greatest available then.
YMMV
Eric
 
+1 for putting your existing computer into gauge mode and cutting your own tables for tech.

iDeco is available for a number of smart phones. Set it to 30/80 gradients and I dive it for all non-helium tech dives. I think it cost less than $10.

Buy a computer later when and if you need it. Rather keep those $$$ in your pocket for now.
 
I currently have a Sunnto Zoop. It has been fine for recreational diving, but I'm plan on starting to Tec training in late spring. I've acquired most of the gear I will be needing except for a dive computer that will handle gas switching. I know that there are those on here that are anti-dive computer and I do plan to make extensive use of the tables, but I see a dive computer as reduntacy for my onboard grey matter computer.


When discussing this with a potential GUE fundie instructor he stated that one of the big drawbacks to computers is you cannot adjust the dive plan on the computer on the fly. For instance if you lost a deco gas your computer would not be able to handle the fact that you are now using your reserve backgas for deco. At least I think that is what he was saying. I was under the impresson that both the X1 and the predator had this functionality. Am I incorrect about this?

In the past computers were not tech friendly. Today, several computers have been designed with the needs of the technical diver in mind. It's not that people are anti-computer and pro tables, but rather those who dislike computers are often better educated regarding ascent strategy. They want to take advantage of the cumulative knowledge we have about safe ascents and employ various concepts at differing depths without a computer punishing them in some way or driving them to the surface.

A dive can be broken down into 4 phases:
1) Bottom Phase
2) Deep Stop Phase
3) Middle Stop Phase with or without Gas Switch
4) Shallow Stop Phase with or without Gas Switch

For tech divers, every minute spent at depth enjoying a dive will result in having to pay the penalty of decompression. Decompression requires time and time uses gas. Gas is life so we want to try to surface with plenty life support. Time also exposes us to cold and cold reduces the effectiveness of decompression. With this in mind, once a dive is over on the bottom we want to keep our decompression as short as possible, yet have it be effective so we don't get bent.

Once the decision is made to head home we just want to get off the bottom where our tissues are loading gas and ascend to a point where we start to off-gas. The ascent strategy for the bottom phase of a dive is simply to begin to ascend fast enough to get out of there and slow enough to off-gas. This is often the standard ascent rate of 30 ft./min.

Once we ascend to a depth where the pressure reduction allows our bodies to off-gas, we want to take advantage of Pyle Deep Stops (first proposed by a marine biologist who noticed he experienced less DCS when he stopped at various deep depths to empty the swim bladders of fish with a hypodermic needle he was collecting) and bubble formation and growth theories. These deep stops are simply 30 second pauses with 30 second slides to the next higher depth. (Some computers would punish you rather than credit you for these stops.)

Most divers will employ a gas switch once they reach a mid-range depth. Some bubble model theory software and some dive computers will credit you for the pressure gradient change that occurs when you switch to a deco gas, but ignore the speed at which our blood circulates throughout the body and how gradient and blood gases work together to create a better theoretical strategy called the "oxygen window effect." Divers may want to hang 3 - 5 minutes longer at the gas switch to take advantage of the high PPO2 at the deepest safe oxygen pressure and remain for a couple of circulatory cycles allowing for the time it takes blood to fully circulate through our bodies to begin to wash out more inert gas. Some computers might punish you for this by adding more deco time in shallow water.

After the switch, we begin to ascend through a short series of stops between where our bodies began to off-gas and the shallow water that lies above. These mid-range stops take into consideration bubble modeling, dissolved gas modeling, overall ascent time to shape a gradual ascent profile and may even include an "air break" at the last mid-range stop. These stops may be 50% of the decompression time and some computers would penalize you for it by adding time up top.

Finally, we enter shallow water where we may or may not employ another gas switch. For most divers the shallow phase begins at 20 feet with a switch to oxygen. Most traditional computers would employ a Buhlmann model and you'd be stuck in the shallows for a long time waiting for the computer to clear having been punished for all the safety stops you made as part of a safer strategy. You can either hang in the shallows for a long time waiting for the computer to clear, or not use a computer knowing how you financed your deco debt to the water column.

Once you train your brain and find deco strategies you like, a modern technical computer can be a great back-up! Sit in any tech class and most divers are coming up with different answers to math questions while sipping coffee and using calculators. Now, these same people are expected to do perfect math underwater while task-loaded every time? In theory ... sounds awesome! In practice ... maybe not so much. Most tech divers who use computers don't believe that they should just let the computer control the dive, but they remember how many times their numbers didn't add up the last time they did their taxes. They know that the IRS can be mean, but "mother nature" - even meaner.
 
I will be the anti technology " devils advocate ". I am not familiar with the padi route, but I will tell you that buying a computer should be the last thing on your mind at your level. I was not allowed to use a puter for training, BT only. After training I continued to cut tables for at least 100 staged dives. I learnrd alot from that excercise. During the time I was cutting tables, I saw 3 puters come and go. The x1, predator, vr3. Technology is moving really fast, by the time you are ready to fly a puter for staged diving, who knows what will be available.

When I was ready, I looked backwards for features I wanted in a puter, and dive it as a sanity check for my grey matter puter. I settled on a cochran emc 20H. All the features I wanted, and the price point was 25% of any of the newest, greatest available then.
YMMV
Eric

MY situtation is such that I will have to buy something for Tec Training. The Zoop is one of Sunnto's basic model and does not have a gauge mode. So if I try to use the timer and depth guage on a decompression dive it will probably scream at me for I believe 5 mins when I exit the water after which point it will lock up.

That leaves me with buying a bottom timer and later buying a computer. This might be the best route as then I would have a redundant timer and depth gauge.

or

I can save the money I would spend on a quality bottom timer (4 to 6 hundred dollars, I believe) and go straigt to a dive computer.

TraceMalin it is funny you brought up taxes and the IRS. Taxes is what I do for a living. Also, I don't post much on here but I have followed the computers vs tables debates to see how I want my diving future to play out. Having done many thousands of returns I now have a feel for what a persons refund or balance due should be before the computer gives me the end result. When there is a difference between what I feel and what the computer is telling me I look for the reason. Sometimes it's a computer input problems or a bug in the software and sometimes while doing the return in my head I forget a credit, a deduction, or an odd tax. Either way by the time my returns are submitted to IRS I am certain the work I've done will stand up to the toughest scrutiny by the IRS. Sadly this is not the norm in my profession. Many times I hear a client ask why a refund amount is what it is and to often what I hear is "because the computer says so"

I have no desire to trust my life and health to a dive plan that should be safe "because the computer says so" nor do I wish to die as a result of a brain fart.

Thanks for all the input guys.
 
Just an FYI. A "quality bottom timer" can be had for as little as 100 bucks if you buy used or just over 200 for new. My OMS timer has been going strong and staying accurate for 5 years now. Based on factory data and user reviews I'll get maybe 5 more years out of it since I can't replace the battery. Cost - $100. off of a user on The Deco Stop.
 
Your statements in post 16 put you way ahead of the game. As Jim stated a good uwatec or oms botto timer can be had cheap. Also the dive rite nitek duo or any rec puter that can be put into gauge mode only should be really cheap on the used market. Good luck, with your training and post your decisions and results when you are finished, as the next person advanceing is right behind you, and has the same questions we all did like you do now.
Eric
 
Just an FYI. A "quality bottom timer" can be had for as little as 100 bucks if you buy used or just over 200 for new. My OMS timer has been going strong and staying accurate for 5 years now. Based on factory data and user reviews I'll get maybe 5 more years out of it since I can't replace the battery. Cost - $100. off of a user on The Deco Stop.

Jim I'm a little adverse to buying used electronic unless I know the previous owner. Got burned doing that a few times. So I'm thinking about going new with the least expensive BT I can find, but in my mind cheap and life support probably shouldn't go together. Are there any product lines you think I should avoid.

Eric thanks and I will do.
 
No offense intended but I don't consider a bottom timer or a computer life support. The only life support computer is between your ears. This is a back up device to another way of keeping track of your depth and time. So that you can follow the tables you'll have cut for the dive. If all you're using is the bottom timer as an electronic device your tech instructor will also require you to have an analog depth guage and a dive watch. At least they should have you carrying two independent means of following your plan.

The only brands you should avoid are those that are overpriced for what they do.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
 

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