Neutrally Buoyant vs Kneeling - What is Better whilst teaching Scuba Diving skills?

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I was actually told that I was a liar by one of the people you mentioned in that letter to PADI when I first revealed that I was not allowing my students to kneel a year or two earlier. They wanted to know "HOW" I taught a certain skill and apparently I didn't give them the answer they wanted.
I have seen this revisionism before and ignored it.

The earliest discussions were in the Instructor to Instructor forum. I was then an advocate of instructing on the knees, and there were only a couple people advocating neutrally buoyant instruction. One individual poster got me thinking about it--Walter. That is when I began experimenting with it, and I carefully surveyed all other posters talking about technique, looking for clues as to how to do it. There weren't many. When I finally decided that I wanted to submit an article to PADI, I gathered every single person I could think of on ScubaBoard (and elsewhere) who had shown any inkling of interest in this except Walter, who could not be part of it because of his open hatred of PADI. I created a discussion group on The Dive Matrix so I could avoid certain negative people on ScubaBoard who would have sabotaged the entire effort.

As I wrote in a PM to you well after the article was published, I did not include you in the group because I didn't have the faintest clue that you taught students while buoyant. I have no memory of you giving any indication of it in the early discussions. If I had known that, you would have certainly been included, and I would have asked you to create a special forum in ScubaBoard where we could discuss instead of going to an outside site.

Well after the article was published, and after the outrageously combative discussions that followed were over, you wrote that you started students in mid water from the very beginning rather than with fins lightly touching as the rest of s did. Lots of people had trouble imagining how that was possible, and you were asked for a step-by-step description of how you reach that point with brand new students. I was one of those asking--I could not see how I could start that way. It took a lot of pleading, but you eventually described that instructional practice in more detail. I am sure that is what you are remembering when you tell everyone over and over and over again that you were the only instructor doing it and that everyone else was doubting you. and were finally won over to your idea. You just have the timeline wrong. (Of course, all you have to do is to link to those discussions to prove me wrong.)

All of the ScubaBoard people who were part of that are gone now. (There is one exception, someone who was part of the discussion but did not want to be named in the article for fear of repercussions from his dive shop.) Two are, very sadly, deceased. I do not consider myself to be part of ScubaBoard, either. I came back for this discussion because it is so important to me, but I pretty much stopped participating last may when you told me I was an embarrassment to ScubaBoard and made it clear that as far as you were concerned, ScubaBoard would be happy to see me go. So I left. With no one who knows any better around any more, you can go on presenting yourself as the God of neutral buoyancy instruction, the lone prophet who led the way out of the wilderness.
 
Gentlemen, let's not get personal. While I have butt heads with both of you, I am grateful to both of you for your contribution to my growth as an instructor.

This post is about teaching on the knees and hopefully neutrally buoyant (meaning no fin tips touching the bottom).

Those who have made the "leap" have discovered less time is required to produce improved results. I honestly don't understand why this is even a question anymore, other than the business aspect as this requires more skilled instructors which reduces the number of instructors that can be generated each year, which is bad for agencies' bottom line. Unfortunately, many CDs/ITs are incapable of teaching new instructors to teach properly.
 
I have seen this revisionism before and ignored it.
Yet, I see your account as revisionism. This is the first time I've seen where you've called it "revisionism", so I guess it continues to change. The truth is somewhere on here, in the bowels of the I2I forum. I do remember you specifically telling me you didn't believe me because it was impossible to teach it that way... and then somehow you changed your perspective. That was my real point: what seems impossible sometimes isn't very hard at all. You won't really know until you try. I'm not a pedagogue, and even I was able to figure it out. I saw you go from "I don't believe you" to writing a paper on how to do it. Quite the reversal and you should be proud of that. The critics of the never kneel method should take note of that as well. They will never know if it's good or bad until they try it. I've only known one instructor to try it and reject it. Most embrace it like they invented it. As far as I'm concerned, the real inventors are GUE. Like PADI, I find them too rigid for my style. I've adopted my method to NAUI, SDI and NASE, but it could probably be used under any agency. It continues to evolve for me and my best class continues to be the very next one.
As I wrote in a PM to you well after the article was published, I did not include you
See how we remember things differently? I remember you telling us that ScubaBoard was too toxic for such a discussion, so you took it elsewhere. I was never a PADI instructor, so not being included in that paper did not bother me a bit. I didn't see much of a difference between us and the Dive Matrix. We were big, it was new and shiny, but almost everyone there was already a member here. Currently, we're still around, but I don't think the DM is. So, it would appear we couldn't have been that toxic. But still, it's not unusual for people to remember the same event a bit and sometimes a lot differently. Sometimes what people say makes a bigger impact on the recipient than themselves. A criticism or harsh word will create an impression that we might not remember, but it's been burned into the mind of the person we directed it towards. I take every criticism of myself and ScubaBoard personally. Not in a vindictive way, but to learn from it and improve. While I appreciate them, I don't remember many of the accolades or attaboys because I don't learn much from those. But I certainly learn from my critics and it makes me a better instructor, admin and even person. At least in the long run.
 
I honestly don't understand why this is even a question anymore,
From my limited understanding, kneeling is a holdover from the first instructors being former demolition divers. They did their diving on their knees as they dealt with underwater ordnance. I'm not sure this is anything more than apocryphal, but it made sense. This evolved to the idea that divers were less likely to bolt to the surface if they were kneeling. Teaching is one part imparting skills and one part making sure you don't lose them. Control, control, control was an important part of my class and I was graded in how I kept them planted to bottom. This means you have to overweight them from the beginning which is counter productive to being a good diver. So, at the end of each pool session, you're supposed to take them on a little swim, with trim and being neutral being optional.

The beauty about putting trim and buoyancy first, is that you give your students control right up front. Rather than teaching them bad habits you'll have to break later, you get them looking good from the beginning. Moreover, since they have developed control far beyond the traditional Scuba student, the instructor doesn't have to worry as much about providing that for them. Bolting to the surface because they feel out of control is virtually eliminated. This alone allows the student to learn faster and more completely.

Most students are in awe of their instructor. They want to be just like their instructor in every way. A smart instructor uses this to their advantage and always sets a proper example. If you have perfect trim, neutral buoyancy and use a frog kick, most of your students will emulate the same thing, without you having to say a thing. Monkey see, monkey do! This is one of the reasons I hate CESAs as it sets a horrible example. If your students see you being a diving yoyo, then no matter how you tell them it's bad, they see you as living proof that it's really OK. That it injures instructors to where they can no longer instruct is yet another reason it should be abandoned. Doing it horizontally in the pool is sufficient as far as I'm concerned.
 
This evolved to the idea that divers were less likely to bolt to the surface if they were kneeling.

I read a comment on FB, where an instructor said students were less likely to bolt to the surface if they were neutrally buoyant and trim, as they were not able to easily push off the bottom. That made sense to me.
 
I read a comment on FB, where an instructor said students were less likely to bolt to the surface if they were neutrally buoyant and trim, as they were not able to easily push off the bottom. That made sense to me.
While this is somewhat true, students are ingenious in their abilities to circumvent things. :D

Divers who are out of control often feel like they're falling. By "out of control", I mean that they lack basic trim and buoyancy. You can see them from afar because they have a 30 degree cant to their attitude. Falling is not a pleasant feeling, and so they head to the surface where they can be buoyant and safe.
 
While this is somewhat true, students are ingenious in their abilities to circumvent things. :D

Divers who are out of control often feel like they're falling. By "out of control", I mean that they lack basic trim and buoyancy. You can see them from afar because they have a 30 degree cant to their attitude. Falling is not a pleasant feeling, and so they head to the surface where they can be buoyant and safe.
Yes, but this is why we don't race into the water. First establish comfort and ease into scuba by doing surface mask/snorkel/breathing exercises, then skin diving/snorkeling, and then scuba where we begin with weighting students properly so that they float effortlessly in the shallow section of the pool. I won't claim this will work 100% of the time, but so far, I have great success
 
As a dive guide in the Keys, I saw this happen often, especially if the diver was stressed. I saw them kneel to communicate with one another, to fix or adjust something and more.
I sometimes get bored with some dives sites and will pay attention to other dive groups around me.
In Cozumel a few years ago a diver was separated from his group and became part of ours. Every time he stopped to look for his group, he planted firmly on the bottom. Like many you see, he did the same thing while clearing his mask.

Last year in Cayman on the Oro Verde it was a kneel fest when a couple of rays went through. Instead of hovering, this group of 10 plopped on the bottom. Most couldn’t hover anyway and had to maintain position by kicking. When they stopped kicking, they settled ‘nicely’ on the bottom. It was a sight of beauty.

I can say that by teaching off the bottom, I have yet to teach the hovering skill in an OW class. Why? Because they begin learning buoyancy from breath one. If I want a student to hover I just give them the hold signal or give them a game to play.

I have to give it to@boulderjohn and @The Chairman. You still have the patience to be the ambassadors of buoyancy on SB. I would be surprised if you don’t have the responses in a file ready to go.
@wetb4igetinthewater, you’re the new fighter, keep up the fight.

Soapbox

This whole debate/discussion has been going on for sooo long. At this point I couldn’t give a flying crap what other stores, instructors or agencies around me do.
Those that get it, will continue to train people to be divers, share the knowledge with those that ask and the others will train them to be underwater breathing, sightseeing tourists. Which is sad.

We’ll continue to explain to students the benefits when asked the question; why do others sit, stand and kneel on platforms or the bottom to do skills and we do them while moving or hovering?
/soapbox

Gawd I need to get underwater.
 
The earliest discussions were in the Instructor to Instructor forum.

Hi John! It’s been a long time!
John and I had numerous discussions in person and on SB on this topic, and many other topics about creating a responsible and comprehensive program within the PADI Standards. We compared a lot of notes and bounced some good and bad ideas off of each other. Influenced by many people on this forum including Thalassamania, Peter Guy, TS&M, Chairman, and many others.
It isn’t mind boggling, but it is disappointing to see that teaching the basic foundations of diving, are still not widely embraced.

I had made the commitment to start doing a number of skills neutrally buoyant as far back as 2008, and had been teaching all skills neutrally buoyant since 2010 within the confines of the shop where I taught. When I opened my own dive business in 2012, the foundation of our programs were neutral buoyancy, horizontal trim, and comprehensive training. We teach all new students, even discover scuba students in BP/W rigs, and all skills, except one are done neutrally buoyant. The exception being the neutral buoyancy drill using power inflator and oral inflation. It’s a fantastic reward to re-establish neutral after suddenly feeling pinned to the floor.
We’ve certified thousands of students starting neutrally buoyant. It starts in the classroom presentation and is solidified in student’s muscle memory during confined water sessions, and driven home during the open water dives. I’m proud to travel anywhere with my new students. They might be inexperienced, but they are very competent!
All of our Divemasters are drilled with horizonal trim and neutral buoyancy. The DMCs are required to do their demos whilst neutral in order to get a 5. If the skill is executed perfectly, but on the knees, it’s a 3.
The proof is in the pudding.
 
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