Negative entry vs Using a downline

[PfcAJ]

I do this dive with dual 80's and a 30 cu ft bottle of pure O2. The 80's are "jacked". Still, I am not very heavy....there have been occasions when I jumped in and someone had a scooter issue or something, and I had to stay at the surface--and swimming was an easy way to do this...although by this time, you know you have blown the drop, and you resign yourself to adding gas to the wing, and the likelihood of getting back on the boat for a re-drop.. This is an issue that either gets resolved in about 5 seconds, or it is back on the boat we go....


Of course, either I am using a very thin freedive wetsuit that is essentially neutral itself-almost like lycra...or a dry suit. Never a thick wetsuit.

---------- Post added April 2nd, 2014 at 04:47 PM ----------


Did rock climbing come to mind ?

Not did. Do. Present tense.

 

[danvolker]

There's nothing DIR about a cowboy dive without enough gas to even do the deco, let alone some kind of delay or issue.

I don't think you are familiar with the WKPP trimix tables cut for George....the ones made by Dr Bill Hamilton, Bill Mee, and George.....This is what I was using, and my VO 2 Max was as high or higher than George's, so the thinking was, any dive he would be good with, I would be also....in fact, we did many dives like this with 2 deep dives in a day, such as when we were looking for the 3 dead divers in the Divers Supply tragedy....Exploration level tables for individuals is a different math....we would come up much more quickly, and the stops were quite different.
They would work well though...I always felt great in the hours after a deep dive.

George always had plenty of gas left at 20 feet, as did Bill and I.

 

[PfcAJ]

So was this in the past or in the present? Because if its in the present you're being exactly what you preach against on this board, given what we know now-a-days.

If it was 20years ago (and not current) then you get a pass.

 

[danvolker]

At about 4:00 minutes into your Castor video, isn't that your buddies/wife using a line?

How does she manage the negative entries with her camera rig? Does just jump in negative holding it above her head?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The current was very slight that day, and another boat dropped on this wreck with us, and they tied off a line...Sandra likes the ease of the line for ascent, so she took the opportunity to use it and relax all the way up....this was an easy day for up or down on a line.....I just stayed horizontal and did a slow pace to stay even with the line without holding it as I ascended....I prefer light swimming to holding on to a line.

On jumping in negative, Sandra just backflops to protect the camera, and then is sinking right away....My camera is about the same size as hers ( we both shoot Canon 5 D's) , so it a giant stride with a mid-air twist to back flop...protects the camera and does not over flex my freedive fins
When you back flop, you just hold the camera tight to your chest, and there is no shock wave hitting the camera.

---------- Post added April 2nd, 2014 at 06:17 PM ----------

So was this in the past or in the present? Because if its in the present you're being exactly what you preach against on this board, given what we know now-a-days.

If it was 20years ago (and not current) then you get a pass.

The chatting about the RBJ was the 90's....In the last year, the only deep stuff we have been doing is baby deep stuff like the Ande at 195 feet...which I did with dual 80's, jacked, and with my 30 for O2.....This was video, and the group I was with was only good for 15 minutes.....
This was NOT with my normal buddies....it was with Spearfishing buddy Captain Van, and some other non-DIR's....
[video=youtube_share;yeOcga72oLs]http://youtu.be/yeOcga72oLs[/video]

 

[T.C.]

I think the type of diver Dan is talking about would be doing a proper pre-dive check, would be able to turn their own gas on while swimming, and would both be aware of their buddies and able to assist with problems. In other words, I don't think he is talking about AOW divers with 30 dives.

As has been pointed out, bad stuff happens. Even in this case, the woman jumped in with a properly turned on tank. But she still sank. If her BCD was partly inflated, she should have floated...simplifying the rescue.

If it was a dive with dan, no one would know until towards the end of the dive; and the body would probably never be found. But if you listen to him, an entry that may have saved her is "defective".

If you were new to diving, then gear might come off on an entry off the platform....What I see off of many thousands of dives on charterboats in S fl, is that the people that dive alot, will have gear attached snugly, it will be streamlined, and it will not come off when they jump in.....

Riiiggghhttt....Because gear never breaks at the worst time.

In any event, I will re-stress, that it is the "Captain" and their skill in deciding where to drop my buddies and I into the water that allows us to hit the wreck or reef with precision each time.

Oh, I get it. If you get lucky and hit the wreck, It's because you did it. If you miss, it's obviously the Captain's fault.

Nice way to dodge the blame for your errors.

So I am very picky about what dive boats I use in South florida. On the other hand, I have done some captaining of private boats myself, and I can do a 'fair" job of dropping, so I can estimate where I want to be dropped, and then get a captain without drop experience, to get us to a wreck---but this is not diving skill--this is captaining skill.

Just tell us who you use; so I can avoid patronizing them...or running into you on a boat. I like how you say that you can make this estimate...It really isn't about the Captain; it's about you bragging.

Back to the original point....this was in a discussion where a diver accident occurred, and the comment one poster made was that the diver should not have done a free descent, that they should have used a line to go down--that this was a safer and better method. I took issue with this, as a procedure. This is how this thread began, not by my just "out of the blue", deciding to trash use of lines for descent and ascent.

Yeah, it really was about you. You started off by saying your technique, which works were you are, is the best and only way to dive- all other methods are "defective" according to you. The truth is, you are wrong. Using a line is demonstratably safer and better. Your method is filled with risk.

The current was very slight that day, and another boat dropped on this wreck with us, and they tied off a line...Sandra likes the ease of the line for ascent, so she took the opportunity to use it and relax all the way up....this was an easy day for up or down on a line

So, why don't you come out and declare your wife 'defective' in the same shrill voice you decried lines earlier???

i dont wanna be a party pooper but i'm not sure how you did 25 mins at 240ish with two 80s to get you all the way to 20 feet even getting super creative with the minimum gas calculations...

I say it's called lying. He's all about big talk...but that's about it. REad PFCAj's posts and his destruction of dan's lies.

Does anyone else here know dan and his diving?

And dan, while you're here, would you care to tell us about Gladius or Maximus investments?

 

[danvolker]

As has been pointed out, bad stuff happens. Even in this case, the woman jumped in with a properly turned on tank. But she still sank. If her BCD was partly inflated, she should have floated...simplifying the rescue.

If it was a dive with dan, no one would know until towards the end of the dive; and the body would probably never be found. But if you listen to him, an entry that may have saved her is "defective".


Riiiggghhttt....Because gear never breaks at the worst time.


Oh, I get it. If you get lucky and hit the wreck, It's because you did it. If you miss, it's obviously the Captain's fault.

Nice way to dodge the blame for your errors.



Just tell us who you use; so I can avoid patronizing them...or running into you on a boat. I like how you say that you can make this estimate...It really isn't about the Captain; it's about you bragging.

I am not quite sure what I said that has you so upset.....and I am NOT trying to fight with people on this board....There are several SB members that have dived with me, and it is easy to confirm the dives we did in the 90's.....
Whatever the beef is, I will discuss this in a PM, but keeping the beef going here will just get you and I banned from this forumn.....

---------- Post added April 2nd, 2014 at 07:14 PM ----------

In thinking back on the start of this thread, I should never have suggested that using descent and ascent lines is defective....I meant this to mean that I really don't like them at the time I wrote this..... The meaning to most people in this thread, appears as a slam--and one that I should not have made.
Anyway, divers using the lines were not defective.....the comment was about one technique versus the other....and it was not my intention to get lots of members upset over this. Sorry....

 

[maniago]

Sorry....

I think we ought to terminate this thread now. Mia copa made, mia copa accepted (by this diver).

Can we move on now please?

 

[T.C.]

In thinking back on the start of this thread, I should never have suggested that using descent and ascent lines is defective....I meant this to mean that I really don't like them at the time I wrote this..... The meaning to most people in this thread, appears as a slam--and one that I should not have made.
Anyway, divers using the lines were not defective.....the comment was about one technique versus the other....and it was not my intention to get lots of members upset over this. Sorry....

It's hypocrisy, is what it is. Arrogant hypocrisy.

But I've made my point. As long as I don't have to deal with the arrogant "DIR" practicers like you in real life; I have nothing more to add.

 

[danvolker]

So was this in the past or in the present? Because if its in the present you're being exactly what you preach against on this board, given what we know now-a-days.

If it was 20years ago (and not current) then you get a pass.

You would probably enjoy hearing from Bill Mee on how they developed the special deep Cave exploration tables for George ( that the 3 of used for our ocean dives) ...and how extremely different they are from the GUE tables. They utilize a much faster ascent, and on the short duration 25 minute or less dives to 280( like the RBJ) , there is none of the deep stop, slow down , that GUE uses.....so no where near as much back gas was needed. The down side of these tables, is that a much larger percent of the tech population would get very bent with these tables--they were very individualized....But again, hear this from Bill Mee..he helped in creating these tables.
You have his email address.

 

[PfcAJ]

You would probably enjoy hearing from Bill Mee on how they developed the special deep Cave exploration tables for George ( that the 3 of used for our ocean dives) ...and how extremely different they are from the GUE tables. They utilize a much faster ascent, and on the short duration 25 minute or less dives to 280( like the RBJ) , there is none of the deep stop, slow down , that GUE uses.....so no where near as much back gas was needed. The down side of these tables, is that a much larger percent of the tech population would get very bent with these tables--they were very individualized....But again, hear this from Bill Mee..he helped in creating these tables.
You have his email address.

I'm sure I would for entertainment. I enjoy the old stories a lot. The WKPP also used to use colored bands for gas identification, air to 190, added compressed air into their Tekna scooters, much lighter on the Helium past that, 240 gas (at 240'), and other fun and interesting historical tidbits. Hell I have a video of Parker in '88 with a helmet light.That doesn't mean its a good idea, esp in 2014 when we know better.

My point is that saying you "do" these dives (as in nowadays) vs "did" these dives 20some years ago is a bit different. What you're describing isn't "DIR". Not enough gas is not DIR. Sry, I don't really care what was done in the past (other than 'hey thats neato'). Lets keep history separate from today's practices.

It's hypocrisy, is what it is. Arrogant hypocrisy.

But I've made my point. As long as I don't have to deal with the arrogant "DIR" practicers like you in real life; I have nothing more to add.

Don't be fooled. Nothing about the dive Dan is describing is DIR.