Need New Dive Computer - Please Help !

[jh_MacLeod]

looks like the tech was on the right track. he just did not want to admit - it is just another new fancy term for lucrative marketing.

thanks for the clarification jh_MacLeod

as for safe mixing of freedive and scuba. I am with you. best use your head.

BTW - how long does the galileo lock you out after being at depth in apnea (gauge) mode? perhaps 48 hours like all other uwatecs?

It doesn't lock you out; that's the point of the quote from the PDF I sent you. You can log a whole series of apnea dives, switch to scuba mode and immediately go diving. In this regard, you can think of it as an additional guage mode.

Here are a few more cautionary quotes from the manual about mixing apnea and scuba.
"Apnea diving, and particularly Apnea diving in combination with scuba diving, can
present risks that have not been researched and are not commonly known."
"Apnea after Scuba diving is not recommended; check the latest recommendations
from your Apnea instructor or organization.
Deep repetitive Apnea dives are not recommended; leave enough recovery time
between your Apnea dives."

With this in mind, it's sort of obvious why they choose not to try to integrate apnea mode with the scuba nitrogen-loading functions. If you want to do Apnea dives and track your nitrogen, then you can just do your apnea dives in scuba mode. Do enough bounce dives and it may lock you out .

But, for the type of apnea dives I sometimes do (relatively shallow and short, in combination with snorkeling), it offers some worthwhile features (logging of time, depth, temperature, ascent rate, etc.)

 

[UaVaj]

It doesn't lock you out; that's the point of the quote from the PDF I sent you. You can log a whole series of apnea dives, switch to scuba mode and immediately go diving. In this regard, you can think of it as an additional guage mode.

being at depth in apnea mode = (1) no lock out and (2) no tracking of nitrogen loading.

if that is the case, then that is a big lawsuit waiting to happen. no way is uwatec that stupid to leave themselve open in a liability situation like that.

"IF" in fact galileo does not lock out after apnea mode and the user can switch to scuba mode, then it "MUST" be keeping track of nitrogen loading during apnea mode. Regardless of mode - once nitrogen loading is exceeded, galileo will enter SOS mode.



base on the language on uwatec website with the 1.5 firmware upgrade. Unless I am reading it all wrong. It clearly states that apnea nitrogen loading is being kept track of.

quote from uwatec.
"The new 1.5 firmware allows the user to activate the APNEA* mode and benefit from the updated Profile Dependent Intermediate Stops (PDIS)."

"The revolutionary PDIS system calculates deep stops based on the actual dive profile and all other factors that the advanced Uwatec ZH-L8 ADT algorithm normally uses to track the absorption and release of nitrogen during decompression calculations. PDIS has been updated to be even more effective and to better protect the diver from higher nitrogen saturation which occurs during frequent repetitive diving, such as live-a-board cruise diving."

 

[UaVaj]

Forget this discussion. It is becoming worthless. Terms are getting thrown around and usability are getting lost.



Help me get to the bottom of this.
Based on actual smartTRAK diving profiles.

Are you able to freedive, the scuba, then freedive? What is your nitrogen loading level after each activity.

Are you able to scuba, then freedive, then scuba? What is your nitrogen loading level after each activity.

 

[jh_MacLeod]

being at depth in apnea mode = (1) no lock out and (2) no tracking of nitrogen loading.

if that is the case, then that is a big lawsuit waiting to happen. no way is uwatec that stupid to leave themselve open in a liability situation like that.

"IF" in fact galileo does not lock out after apnea mode and the user can switch to scuba mode, then it "MUST" be keeping track of nitrogen loading during apnea mode. Regardless of mode - once nitrogen loading is exceeded, galileo will enter SOS mode.



base on the language on uwatec website with the 1.5 firmware upgrade. Unless I am reading it all wrong. It clearly states that apnea nitrogen loading is being kept track of.

quote from uwatec.
"The new 1.5 firmware allows the user to activate the APNEA* mode and benefit from the updated Profile Dependent Intermediate Stops (PDIS)."

"The revolutionary PDIS system calculates deep stops based on the actual dive profile and all other factors that the advanced Uwatec ZH-L8 ADT algorithm normally uses to track the absorption and release of nitrogen during decompression calculations. PDIS has been updated to be even more effective and to better protect the diver from higher nitrogen saturation which occurs during frequent repetitive diving, such as live-a-board cruise diving."

Well, you raise several issues here, and since I don't really know what is going on inside the computer; and like you, I also have to make assumptions based on what I read in their product manuals, I have no problem admitting I'm not sure what the underlying answer is to some of your questions. I only know what I have experienced with the Luna, but I fear that my limited use of apnea mode (3 times in the last two months) has not "scientifically" proven some of my assumptions. When I get another chance to go diving, I will be more critical in my evaluation of the limitations.

But first, I should be able to clarify the quotes you took from Uwatec's web site. I can relate to the frustration you feel about the lack of clear information from Uwatec. Before I downloaded the apnea update (less than two months ago), I searched through all the info I could find from them, because unlike an older Sol, the Luna comes from the factory with the 1.5 firmware, so I was confused by their web site info as well. The only thing I can conclude now is that the info on their web sites must have been written by some marketing person who had no knowledge of the products. They mix the features of the 1.5 firmware (PDIS) and the Apnea mode making it appear as if they are the same. But they are not; they are separate downloads. If you believe me about this, then the situation may become clearer for you at least in regard to their promotional info .

Now when we consider guage mode, it "appears" to me, based on what I've read in the manual, that it does not compute nitrogen loading. The Sol and Luna PDFs state, "When Galileo is set to gauge mode, it will only monitor depth, time, tank pressure, heart rate and temperature, and will not carry out any decompression calculation." But then, the manual goes on to say that after diving with guage mode, you will be prevented from entering computer mode again for 48 hours. So, my conclusion from this is that it is simply based on the clock, not on nitrogen loading. In the one year I have been diving the Luna, I have not used it in guage mode.

Regarding apnea mode, from memory, I have used it 3 times (I'm currently out of the country on a business trip and the computer and logs are far away). Since as I said before, I don't really consider mixing the two types of diving safe, I did not make any controlled experiments to test what the computer would or would not allow in regard to back-to-back apnea/scuba dives (This assumption was based on what I read in the manual. It makes no mention of any lock-out period as it does for guage mode). In the 3 times I used apnea mode, my pattern was always scuba dives one day, then a few apnea dives the next day. I don't remember ever trying to enter apnea mode while the computer showed any saturation, so with my limited usage I cannot verify for sure that there isn't some kind of lockout period. But having said this, you should also keep in mind that with the Galileo's, you can clear out the saturation obligations whenever you want .

 

[UaVaj]

I will wait for your testing and for a copy of your smart trak profile for verification to my questions.

you do not have to physically scuba dive and apnea dive on the same day if you are not comfortable.

for testing purprose on dry land. put the computer into a sturdy plastic jar with a secure big lid (even a sturdy bag will work). fill the jar with water. then sit/squeeze on the jar. your weight on the jar will create enough water pressure fooling the galileo it is diving.

put it on scuba mode. set a heavy book on it to stimulate being at depth. then half an hour later. switch it to freedive mode. then squeeze the jar a few times to stimulate bounce diving in apnea mode. then switch it back to scuba mode.

then let all of us know the results.

 

[jh_MacLeod]

I will wait for your testing and for a copy of your smart trak profile for verification to my questions.

you do not have to physically scuba dive and apnea dive on the same day if you are not comfortable.

for testing purprose on dry land. put the computer into a sturdy plastic jar with a secure big lid (even a sturdy bag will work). fill the jar with water. then sit/squeeze on the jar. your weight on the jar will create enough water pressure fooling the galileo it is diving.

put it on scuba mode. set a heavy book on it to stimulate being at depth. then half an hour later. switch it to freedive mode. then squeeze the jar a few times to stimulate bounce diving in apnea mode. then switch it back to scuba mode.

then let all of us know the results.

I’ve got bad news and good news. The bad news is that the Galileo will not do what you want it to do (switch back and forth between apnea and scuba modes). The good news is that you were absolutely correct in your understanding of how the computer functions behind the various interface modes.

The more I thought about what you said, the more I began to doubt my assumption that there was no lockout. So this weekend, I called my girlfriend and convinced her to run the tests that you had suggested. My apologies for the long-winded post that follows, but I thought you would want the details.

I had her take one of my dry bags filled with water, and with the Luna in “apnea” mode, drop it in and compress the bag. She’s not very heavy so it took us a few attempts to simulate a depth deeper than 1.3 meters, but eventually she got it working. She simulated three apnea dives of 3 or 4 minutes each, with a few minutes between each dive. Then, I had her take the computer out, dry it off and wait for 15 minutes (according to the PDF, the computer would then log the series of dives and go to sleep). While waiting, I had her describe the screen to me and it was basically counting the surface interval.

So, long story short, after 15 minutes the computer logged the dive and then displayed a 48-hour no fly time. In other words, I could have done more apnea dives, but the computer was locked out of all other modes. This is the same behavior that is described in the Galileo manuals after using “guage” mode. I had her go to the dive mode menu and try to change modes, but this was not allowed. The computer was counting down the 48 hours and was obviously not going to let us change modes until that countdown had finished. If there are limits to the time and depths the computer will allow in “apnea” mode, the manual does not say.

In talking with her about the previous times I had used “apnea” mode, she confirmed my memory that the only time I had used “apnea” mode was at the end of some of our weekend trips. She doesn’t scuba dive, so our basic agreement is that she allows me to go off all day scuba diving as long as I devote the last day to her, thus we usually rest and do a little snorkeling before returning home. So after I had used my Luna in “apnea” mode, the only thing I did with it was dry it off, turn it off, and pack it for the trip home. Consequently, by the time I got home and looked at it again, the lockout had cleared. I didn’t recognize the lockout because I had never used guage mode before.

After we hung up, the computer was still on my mind Saturday night, and I thought of one more test we should try. So, Sunday I called her again and walked her through the process of resetting the computer to “factory default”. Sure enough, the computer reverted to “scuba” mode. But, the 48-hour no fly countdown was still active, and although the mode menu now said “scuba” instead of “apnea”, the mode menu still would not allow any changes. And another strange thing, the nitrogen bar graph was showing one bar of nitrogen loading, confirming as you suspected, that the computer had been calculating nitrogen loading, even though this information was not accessible in “apnea” mode. (I can only assume that if the “apnea” dives had been deep, the bar graph would have shown more loading, but of course this would require a real test instead of just a simulation).

Anyway, after a lot of resistance, I finally managed to convince her that she needed to simulate one more dive. With the computer showing “scuba” mode but also 30 hours of remaining lockout, she put the Luna in the bag and stood on it for 3 minutes. When she took it out and dried it off, it showed a 3-minute scuba dive to 1.3 meters and a desaturation time of approximately 2.5 minutes. The remaining 30 hours of no-fly requirement had vanished! After the 2.5-minute desaturation countdown had finished, the computer reverted back to normal and could be used in any mode. In other words, it was back to full, unsaturated, normal operation. What the results would have been if the apnea dives had accumulated a substantial amount of nitrogen loading, I can’t say for sure, but my guess is that the few minutes of desaturation time came only from the simulated “scuba” dive. It seems as if the simulated scuba dive caused the computer to “throw away” its memory of the “apnea” dives and no-fly time; but again, that’s just speculation.

When I first got the Luna, I carefully read the manual in an attempt to really understand how it worked. My initial impression was that the manual was pretty good. So, I trusted the apnea PDF, that what they had written in it was accurate and complete. But this whole experience is really making me question what other important information may have been left out.

So, good luck in your continuing search for the perfect do-it-all computer.