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For a manufacturer to imply Stephen, or anyone else, is engaged in a questionable collaboration and a secret partnership created to smear his products is just way over the top? Shades of paranoia.

It's wrong for a manufacturer to perpetuate this in public. This whole debate should be taken to PM or to the far side of a barn.

Don
 
mmadiver:
If I hold the tank valve and top of the plate and apply some searious torque I can force them to misalign slightly. For that to happen on its own it would take nothing short of being hit by a boat.

I think this post really gets to the bottom of the issue. It's simply not a real problem. Who cares if you can grab the plate and tank and, with lots of effort, force them to move 1/8" (Stephen's estimation) relative to one another. It's obviously a total non-issue, and as Tobin said, presents no shortcomings when used for its intended purpose.

When I use my DSS plate as a baseball bat, I tend to hit a lot more fly balls. But that doesn't really say anything about its suitability as scuba gear.

My experiences with Tobin have been very good. He is very professional and always takes time to answer questions, even when he has heard them a million times before. And his gear is top-notch.

I can understand Tobin's frustration with the thread. I do think the "issue" should have been taken up with him personally. A lot more people read these threads than post to them. A lot of people use them to research what products to buy. This thread creates the impression that STAs offer some vague advantage over Tobin's wing, but, even according to Stephen's last post, it simply isn't true...unless you're buying the gear to put the plate in a vise and yank on the tank as hard as you can just to see if you can budge it.

Cheers :D

Gregg
 
I purchased this complete DSS rig because I wanted the gear... not to pimp Tobin or to use it in some mischievous way to malign DSS and certainly not because I get free Oxycheq stuff when I get Tobin fired up. I really have been looking forward to getting it for some time I just have been putting it off. I was curious to see if I could fit it into some niche in my diving... I like the idea of a special tool for the job kind of thing and I thought it might just be that.

Here’s the real deal… I simply enjoy playing with these rigs. Every chance I get I go out in the garage to tinker with the stuff. Sometimes I haul it up to the shop to play with it there. But not having a DSS rig was like not having the latest cool toy. So, I got one. I like it and I think I’ll enjoy using it if I can get this bad taste out of my mouth. If not, then I’ll probably give it away to one of my friends… even though I’ll be sad to see it go.

So, I am a “real customer” just like anyone else that has the rig. Come to think of it the concept of an unreal customer is pretty weird.

My history with DSS is actually pretty simple. I have been a supporter since the first day Tobin came to this board. I liked the innovation of his product and like many respected and admired Tobin's ingenuity. I also really liked the fact that DSS presented another option... just like Oxycheq, DSS would offer some stiff competition to Halcyon. At the time, Halcyon was the only game in town with respect to killer cool gear. Though I liked my H gear I felt like they were a bit too... uh... overconfident? That's another story but let’s just say that I welcomed the new arrivals.

I was so excited about DSS in particular that I posted great things about them often. I pointed countless folks Tobin's way. Not everyone, mind you, but if I thought a DSS rig would be best for someone, I said so. I even tried HARD to get my shop to pick up Tobin's line. It didn't happen... but the issue had nothing to do with Tobin or the quality of his gear.

The suggestion by some, that I consistently bang on DSS gear or that I have an agenda is simply untrue. I have said that I like STAs and that I believe that they do offer some benefits. I have never suggested that everyone should use one or that any gear that doesn't make use of one is somehow inferior. I have said that the uniqueness of Tobin's gear makes it somewhat difficult to meld with my some of my other stuff and it does. I never said that this was a DSS problem. And lastly, I always have made it clear that my comments about any gear are my personal opinion. You may not agree with what I think but if everyone thought the same then it would get pretty boring around here.
 
Bob,

I don't believe my thread was a loser from the get go. It was sincere. I simply was asking what I might be doing wrong. If I were to ask how come my can light wouldn't fire today... it really didn't fire, BTW... that wouldn't mean that I think Howard made me a worthless light and it wouldn't be unprofessional to ask the question in an open forum. People too often jump to conclussions.

I didn't personally ask Tobin because he has sorta been on my case as of late and I didn't feel comfortable asking him. This is the same reason that I jumped at the chance to buy it from John... even though I should have bought it directly from Tobin long ago when I bought my first DSS plate. I simply didn't feel comfortable sending Tobin the check when he has been so unfair to me in many of his recent postings.

If you would read the OP you will see that there were no accusations made... explicit or implicit. It never occurred to me that it would be "unprofessional" of me to ask my question. Other than the 'assumption' that I am bashing DSS gear just where exactly did I say anything or even remotely suggest anything like that? The question is rhetorical. Some of you have just assumed that I was taking an underhanded cheap shot. Even the pics weren't inserted to make DSS gear look bad. Some of you just assumed that.

I didn't say this gear is crap. In fact, I was quite positive and even complimented some things that I found particularly nice. I didn't say that no one should buy the DSS rig because it flops around... I said that I was having difficulty getting it as tight and secure as my STAs allow. It really did move and I was having some trouble sorting it out. The photos were an honest representation of what was happening. As it stands now I got it pretty good and I made that admission... as humbling as that was to do.

In my defense, I will say that it was my impression that the cambands on a DSS rig didn't need to be winched down so tight. I have always thought that the wedge blocks were designed for that purpose. (Recall past threads about whether or not SS buckles are needed.) I did lock them down pretty tight. I tried several times to get them tight enough that the plate would not twist. Finally, after laying the thing down on the plate I got the bands tight enough that there isn't any significant movement. (The position of the velcro probably is not what improved the situation but it did get me on the right track) But this isn't something that I usually do... I usually lock my bands with the tank upright. Even now I don't like the idea of laying the rig down to lock them in place... but until things work themselves out that's what I'll do. I suspect as the newness of the rig evaporates I'll quit worry about it. And I still think an STA offers some real advantages... even for a DSS rig.

Also, no one has considered the 'possibility' that there may indeed be something going on with my rig. Is it impossible to imagine that my wedge blocks might be worn and are allowing the late to slide unless the cambands are locked extraordinarily tight? Is it possible that the rubber STA thing might also be worn or for what other reason not doing its job like it used to? There are still a lot of possibilities.

I find it really odd that this was blown so out of proportion. It must be an internet forum phenomenon. It isn’t fun. If my desire was to smear anyone or their product I wouldn't have swallowed my pride and admitted that I got my problem fixed by tightening the bands! If my intent was to smear then I probably would have actually said something ... NEGATIVE. ;)

I have been more than fair and have made no accusations. This whole matter needlessly exploded and a lot of what I've read is simply hyperbole, untruths, over-reaction, assumptions and paranoia. If anyone has been the victim of a smear, it has been me.
 
lundysd:
I really admire someone who can take the high road in situations like this.
Problem is while he was walking down the high road, everyone else would be staring at the car wreck in the ditch this has turned out to be. It's not the greatest thread by any means.

FWIW, my set of DSS gear, which has suffered through 3 seasons of DM work in the Keys and countless "borrowings", has never had an issue. Tobin has been the consummate professional in his dealings with me, both as a fellow dive professional and customer.
 
To be clear on the Oxychec conspiracy... I don't know Patrick... and only recently have I shared a few threads with him. I know of Patrick, of course. I know of Koplin, too. But I never even bought much of their gear. I think I have bought a few harness sets (hardware and crotch straps) over the years but that's about it. I don't know why but I just haven't accumulated much Oxy gear. Somehow I missed out on the wings when they debuted. Everyone really liked them and some found them to be superior to the big H... but I never got one.

Recently, I did purchase a MachV... 'cause it just looked so cool. I also got one of those lift bag sleeves... but my markers won't fit. :14: I paid what anyone else would pay for the stuff. (Patrick did through in some free weight keepers... thanks, Patrick).

So really, I have more money in DSS gear than I do in Oxycheq.
And I got an Agir wing. I actually was successful in getting our shop to pick up the Salvo line... but I have absolutely nothing to do with those sales. I like the Agir wing but I don't think I have anything to gain by promoting Salvo/Agir stuff.

Hmmm.. I got a bunch of FredT plates. But i don't get anything from Fred either.He's sort of a good guy... a guy's guy... I don't think he would give me much for trashin' anybody.

I'm runnin' out of possible co-conspirators. Oh, Halcyon, of course. Now I got a TON of Halcyon stuff... paid out the rear for that stuff! Naw... I like H gear but I have no particular H loyalty. There's a story there and if you knew it you would understand why I couldn't be undercover for that crew. In fact, I have been accused in the past of kicking Halcyon. But I really wasn't! Anyway... i don't work for them.

OK... Bill Main's my hero... if he would ask my to engage in a little subterfuge on his account... I probably would. But as far as I know, Bill doesn't have anything against DSS either.

Agenda? Smear? Working on the sly for Oxy... come on... this is quite silly. Come to think of it... about the time I was talking with Tobin about getting a dealership at our shop and working as the go between between him and the shop's owner, he gave me an INCREDIBLE deal on a plate and weight plates. So there you have it... I've come clean... If I've taken any payoff from anyone to push their product it would be from DSS. Hmm... that's pretty ironic.



I do like STAs, though. :D
 
Stephen Ash:
I simply didn't feel comfortable sending Tobin the check when he has been so unfair to me in many of his recent postings.
Looking for a little pay back Stephen?

Stephen Ash:
Some of you have just assumed that I was taking an underhanded cheap shot. Even the pics weren't inserted to make DSS gear look bad. Some of you just assumed that.
If it walks like a duck........

Stephen Ash:
I didn't say this gear is crap. In fact, I was quite positive and even complimented some things that I found particularly nice.
Just more of the "I really like DSS gear...............but" It's a tired formula. This is your way of attempting to appear objective. Posting staged pictures of a trumped up problem have a way of erroding that vernier of objectivity.

Stephen Ash:
And I still think an STA offers some real advantages... even for a DSS rig.
I wonder how all those other DSS users manage without one.

Stephen Ash:
Also, no one has considered the 'possibility' that there may indeed be something going on with my rig. Is it impossible to imagine that my wedge blocks might be worn and are allowing the late to slide unless the cambands are locked extraordinarily tight? Is it possible that the rubber STA thing might also be worn or for what other reason not doing its job like it used to? There are still a lot of possibilities.
The smear continues, now you imply your DSS rig is full of worn out parts. What's on tomorrow agenda, leaking wings, or venting problems? I'm sure you will be compelled in an "Objective" manner to exhaustively explore every "Possibility"

Stephen Ash:
I find it really odd that this was blown so out of proportion. It must be an internet forum phenomenon. It isn’t fun. If my desire was to smear anyone or their product I wouldn't have swallowed my pride and admitted that I got my problem fixed by tightening the bands!

Unless forced to by numerous other respondents

Stephen Ash:
If anyone has been the victim of a smear, it has been me.
Yes Stephen you are the clear victim here, you brewed up a pot of stink and jumped in.


Tobin
 
Tobin, I know you need to have the last word so I'll just say this and then I'll close this thread on my part:

I have always been a big supporter of DSS gear and I am at a loss to understand why you feel I am not. I can't offer you 100% unquestioning, blind brand loyalty. I won't be intimidated, either.

In the future I expect that we will have our differences of opinion. Hopefully, we can engage in a productive conversation and show some mutual respect. But don't assume that you can tell me what my preferences should be.
 
Just one comment for anybody who is reading this and reflecting on DSS gear . . . one of my best friends just bought a DSS singles rig. Her wing came with the built-in tank stabilizer, but it's integral to the wing, rather than being on a strap as Stephen's and mine are. It is clearly more stable and less amenable to skew than the design that I have. So it appears that this is an older design problem, if it is a problem at all.

BTW, Tobin spent more than a half hour on the phone with my friend, making sure she had the information she needed to choose the right product -- which she didn't -- and refusing to sell what she wanted to her until he had been given the information to be sure she had chosen the right stuff.

Unfortunately, if you get down and wrestle with pigs, you end up smelling like the pigsty. True for all contestants in this one.
 
This was a looser thread. Stephen you REALLY don't seem concerned about fixing your "problem". At least in the last several posts you haven't. If you like STA's so much then use one with your DSS wing!!!!!! I have an STA for my DSS LCD 40 wing and it might surprise you to find out that Tobin has been more then helpfull in my doing so. He didn't once voice his opinion that the STA-less works great for diving. I told him what I wanted to do and he got back to me right away with his helpful input. And yes mine is a full weight/length STA. I took the wobble stopper off and it works like a beauty with the STA as well. And that is what is important here the design works great regardless of STA or not. I'm sure Tobin is fine with you going the STA route that doesn't mean he has to agree with you, right? I had a good laugh when I read the original post because 'smear' was the VERY first thing that came to my mind. Even though I did not know it was called that :) then. If you have a real problem or concern you should PM Tobin and he will be more then helpfull although I think you may have ruined that route. To people who have read some other threads this will be obvious. Unfortunatly not all have, so to them Stephens comments maybe off-putting and that is sad. That is the reason I'm jumping in here, because I don't want people to be put off because of what is said in this thread. What I have said above is simply my truthfull experience. Done my rant. Good night.
 

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