Garth
Contributor
It's Sunday. Has the class made any improvements?
Near miss diving doubles for 2nd time
- Thread starter SmpleGreen
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tonka97
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- I'm a Fish!
Nope, I meant self dependent.
A self sufficient diver (or mountain climber in Into Thin Air) can depend upon leaders' decisions with disastrous results.
Depending (or relying) upon your own locus of control is the way to survive.
This is a key lesson learned from the OP's and Jon Krakauer's accounts.
Garth
Contributor
At some point with some people a level of self dependence will likely get them in trouble.
Reminds me about a book named deep survival where the author talks about people having a "vacation attitude" and place themselves in survival situations because they don't see their own reckless behavior.
Reminds me about a book named deep survival where the author talks about people having a "vacation attitude" and place themselves in survival situations because they don't see their own reckless behavior.
sunapeebob
Contributor
smpleGreen - Thanks for honest reporting. I am starting to transition to doubles myself. I have the advantage of my son, and dive buddy having already done this. Our plan is a slow intro to these as mentioned by others. I have the advantage of a lake next to my house with nice shallow areas for some distance. I hope that your diving continues safely and that you become proficient with the doubles. BTW - you are tougher than I am - with water at 39 degrees - we are always in drysuits! I would not even consider wet.
Bob
Bob
BabyDuck
Contributor
here's what i see -
an/dp is a great class. it is, however, about advanced nitrox & deco procedures, not about learning doubles. you are in a perfect position for a *good* intro to tech class, whether tdi, gue, utd - whoever. you are reasonably experienced rec diver ready to take on new challenges. some form of intro to tech is the class for you. you can't learn that much new gear and that many new procedures, and to try is to walk to the edge of the incident pit and kick at the sand under you.
your instructor is in over his or her head, too. a thumb is not a suggestion, and while i sympathize with the predicament of having someone in process of a drill, it was the instructor who decided the drill was a 'go' before checking that everyone was feeling ok. even if they are your best friend, find a new instructor. nothing you've written would entice me to give them another chance and follow them under again.
op, you have been very gracious and open, and have been graced with a generally helpful thread - i'm glad. you might be ready for the knowledge, but you need lots of skill time. please get it, take a good intro to tech class, and try again. don't put your ass on the line to chase the money you paid. let it go.
an/dp is a great class. it is, however, about advanced nitrox & deco procedures, not about learning doubles. you are in a perfect position for a *good* intro to tech class, whether tdi, gue, utd - whoever. you are reasonably experienced rec diver ready to take on new challenges. some form of intro to tech is the class for you. you can't learn that much new gear and that many new procedures, and to try is to walk to the edge of the incident pit and kick at the sand under you.
your instructor is in over his or her head, too. a thumb is not a suggestion, and while i sympathize with the predicament of having someone in process of a drill, it was the instructor who decided the drill was a 'go' before checking that everyone was feeling ok. even if they are your best friend, find a new instructor. nothing you've written would entice me to give them another chance and follow them under again.
op, you have been very gracious and open, and have been graced with a generally helpful thread - i'm glad. you might be ready for the knowledge, but you need lots of skill time. please get it, take a good intro to tech class, and try again. don't put your ass on the line to chase the money you paid. let it go.
I don't have a lot to add here, just a few summary points.
1. The time to get comfortable with doubles is not in a class. You can learn the basics of diving doubles on your own (mileage varies and not always the best approach), with a knowledgeable mentor or in a class that specifically teaches a doubles configuration. But while having a half dozen dives in an intro to tech class will speed the learning curve, it won't get you comfortable in diving doubles. That takes experience over a variable number of dives.
2. Getting "comfortable" in doubles needs to include getting properly weighted, mastering precision buoyancy in them, mastering a level trim position and getting comfortable with all the normal OW gas sharing skills and emergency drills. Then and only then are you are probably ready to take the configuration into a class room situation, like cavern, intro to cave or AN/DP.
3. If you attempt to do a class like AN/DP in a new configuration you will be using most of your band width trying to manage the doubles and are going to be so task loaded that you are not going to learn much from the course.
4. An instructor who would let you take AN/DP with doubles with basically no doubles experience is an idiot. Don't walk, run away from that moron. All the other failed to properly manage the class issues just add to the reasons to leave him in your wake.
5. AN/DP procedures is, or at least should be, the most intensive course in the TDI or IANDT technical diving course progression, but it is not really priced that way and many instructors may not view it that way. But the fact is that you should be mastering all of the basic technical diving skills (valve drills, deco bottle use, gas sharing, bag shooting, etc) and that in other more advanced clases, such as normoxic trimix, you are just building on those skills, adding a gas or bottle and extending the depth range or amount of deco obligation - the basic skills are the same. Price wise, AN/DP should cost $1500 and normoxic trimix $500 to $750 - not the other way around since ANDP involves more dives, more classroom/equipment configuration time and instruction and mastery of ore skills. The moral being, students shoudl nto be encouraged to take AN/DP until they are truly ready for it, rather than having AN/DP be regarded as a gateway to tech course.
6. You are ultiumately responsible for your own safety. Don't blindly follow anyone anywhere, even an instructor. Choose instrcutors very carefully, interview them and interview former students to try to find out exactly what you are getting and identify the instructors strengths and weaknesses up front. The fact is, there are a lot of instructors out there and soem of them are really bad. In some cases, what they believe is pretty suspect, and in others they may be very solid technical divers, but that does not mean they can actually teach technical diving effectively.
1. The time to get comfortable with doubles is not in a class. You can learn the basics of diving doubles on your own (mileage varies and not always the best approach), with a knowledgeable mentor or in a class that specifically teaches a doubles configuration. But while having a half dozen dives in an intro to tech class will speed the learning curve, it won't get you comfortable in diving doubles. That takes experience over a variable number of dives.
2. Getting "comfortable" in doubles needs to include getting properly weighted, mastering precision buoyancy in them, mastering a level trim position and getting comfortable with all the normal OW gas sharing skills and emergency drills. Then and only then are you are probably ready to take the configuration into a class room situation, like cavern, intro to cave or AN/DP.
3. If you attempt to do a class like AN/DP in a new configuration you will be using most of your band width trying to manage the doubles and are going to be so task loaded that you are not going to learn much from the course.
4. An instructor who would let you take AN/DP with doubles with basically no doubles experience is an idiot. Don't walk, run away from that moron. All the other failed to properly manage the class issues just add to the reasons to leave him in your wake.
5. AN/DP procedures is, or at least should be, the most intensive course in the TDI or IANDT technical diving course progression, but it is not really priced that way and many instructors may not view it that way. But the fact is that you should be mastering all of the basic technical diving skills (valve drills, deco bottle use, gas sharing, bag shooting, etc) and that in other more advanced clases, such as normoxic trimix, you are just building on those skills, adding a gas or bottle and extending the depth range or amount of deco obligation - the basic skills are the same. Price wise, AN/DP should cost $1500 and normoxic trimix $500 to $750 - not the other way around since ANDP involves more dives, more classroom/equipment configuration time and instruction and mastery of ore skills. The moral being, students shoudl nto be encouraged to take AN/DP until they are truly ready for it, rather than having AN/DP be regarded as a gateway to tech course.
6. You are ultiumately responsible for your own safety. Don't blindly follow anyone anywhere, even an instructor. Choose instrcutors very carefully, interview them and interview former students to try to find out exactly what you are getting and identify the instructors strengths and weaknesses up front. The fact is, there are a lot of instructors out there and soem of them are really bad. In some cases, what they believe is pretty suspect, and in others they may be very solid technical divers, but that does not mean they can actually teach technical diving effectively.
vancouverdiver
Contributor
May I suggest/emphasize a few other points. You are diving in cold water and a drysuit is recommended for exposure protection. As well, most doubles divers use trilaminate drysuits to avoid heavy buoyant neoprene. Neoprene suits will require more weight to descend but then you become overweighted at depth when the neoprene compresses.
Other posts have made very good observations and I won't belabour them. However,I would say that when I switched to doubles I was already comfortable with a drysuit. Secondly, I dove in 40 ft of water with a hard bottom until I was confident in my buoyancy. I also was very cautious/focused on watching my buoyancy, inflating slightly in advance as descending, venting on the ascent and moving vertically very very slow.
Like other posts, I find your post quite astonishing. I know there is 2 sides to every story, but I would concur that a heart to heart talk with the instructor and dive shop is in order. It all doesn't add up.
Safe diving, and if you continued in the course, I hope all went well.
Other posts have made very good observations and I won't belabour them. However,I would say that when I switched to doubles I was already comfortable with a drysuit. Secondly, I dove in 40 ft of water with a hard bottom until I was confident in my buoyancy. I also was very cautious/focused on watching my buoyancy, inflating slightly in advance as descending, venting on the ascent and moving vertically very very slow.
Like other posts, I find your post quite astonishing. I know there is 2 sides to every story, but I would concur that a heart to heart talk with the instructor and dive shop is in order. It all doesn't add up.
Safe diving, and if you continued in the course, I hope all went well.
Wow, talk about biting off a bit too much at once. It's quite enough just learning to dive with doubles, but then adding a deco bottle at the same time? Wow, the cards were stacked against you. Glad you're okay.
Garth
Contributor
Any recent dives Simple Green? Talk to your instructor? Is this the last we hear from you?
Maybe you went back to you "other" profile.
Maybe you went back to you "other" profile.
imasinker
Contributor
The scarey thing I find, is an Instructor taking you in an area as deep as 300 feet, while you have no experience in doubles. Just think for a minute! had you had any failure being equipment or just diver error thats a hell of a drop and in my opinion and a very big risk. The deepest I dove with doubles as a beginner was 40 feet until I became comfortable, then at 70 - 90 range. All drysuit diving.
You sound like a guy who wants to do it all and do it well, I commend you on telling your story here, and I hope you take some good points from here and put forward a good foot in water. Intro to tech is a great start for sure, some combine that with the advanced deco. Most will tell you diving steels in a wetsuit is a no no! I agree especially if your diving deeper. Suits compress and become negative quickly. Not to mention losing thermo value. If you have gone to the expense of doubles, a drysuit should be seriously considered.
Take your time, the wrecks and oceans are not going anywhere! diving is about enjoyment, and should always be just that. Good luck on your training! Dive safe!
You sound like a guy who wants to do it all and do it well, I commend you on telling your story here, and I hope you take some good points from here and put forward a good foot in water. Intro to tech is a great start for sure, some combine that with the advanced deco. Most will tell you diving steels in a wetsuit is a no no! I agree especially if your diving deeper. Suits compress and become negative quickly. Not to mention losing thermo value. If you have gone to the expense of doubles, a drysuit should be seriously considered.
Take your time, the wrecks and oceans are not going anywhere! diving is about enjoyment, and should always be just that. Good luck on your training! Dive safe!
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