Near-DIR diving: Are there DIR things you would probably never do?

[b1gcountry]

If we are clear on the essentials and have a procedure for dealing with the "small stuff" and neither of us has an attitude of "my way or the highway", we´ll be able to have a safe and fun dive...and that´s why I get wet...

That sounds very reasonable to me. Some things affect the people you are diving with, and others don't. Personally, I don't care what you do as long it doesn't affect me. Backup reg placement affects me. Whether you have ankle weights on doesn't. I don't know enough about cave diving to comment on placing cookies, but I would guess navigation decisions would be pretty high priority. I don't know, I'm not there yet. At the level of dives I typically do, I'll dive with just about anyone.

Tom

 

[grazie42]

That sounds very reasonable to me. Some things affect the people you are diving with, and others don't. Personally, I don't care what you do as long it doesn't affect me. Backup reg placement affects me. Whether you have ankle weights on doesn't. I don't know enough about cave diving to comment on placing cookies, but I would guess navigation decisions would be pretty high priority. I don't know, I'm not there yet. At the level of dives I typically do, I'll dive with just about anyone.

Tom

This sums up my view as well...I´ll even take the risk of some suboptimal behaviour (like not being able to hold stops) that does effect me (I´ll have to hang longer to pad their deco) because I don´t think it likely (but may be wrong) and don´t mind that much...for one dive...

Yes, navigation is pretty close (if not the)to the top priority in cave diving...what I´m saying is that as long as I get to place my cookies as I want to, I don´t much care how anyone else does it because I won´t be relying on theirs anyway...

 

[lamont]

Yes, navigation is pretty close (if not the)to the top priority in cave diving...what I´m saying is that as long as I get to place my cookies as I want to, I don´t much care how anyone else does it because I won´t be relying on theirs anyway...

Yes you are. If you drop yours while the team is oblivious to a change in directional markers then on a zero viz exit your buddies could be exiting ahead of you and wind up hitting a line arrow pointing back "into" the cave with a cookie behind it that they don't recall. That could lead to an "argument" in the cave while in a zero viz exiting situation, which is something that I don't want to get into. That is why I stop my buddies to make sure that they drop a cookie on a change in directional markers.

They are part of the team, and if the team is not on the same page that directly affects me.

 

[grazie42]

Yes you are. If you drop yours while the team is oblivious to a change in directional markers then on a zero viz exit your buddies could be exiting ahead of you and wind up hitting a line arrow pointing back "into" the cave with a cookie behind it that they don't recall. That could lead to an "argument" in the cave while in a zero viz exiting situation, which is something that I don't want to get into. That is why I stop my buddies to make sure that they drop a cookie on a change in directional markers.

They are part of the team, and if the team is not on the same page that directly affects me.

If you´re going to have an argument each time you encounter an unknown cookie in a cave, you´re going to have a lot of them? TBH that sounds about as bright as the "drop bottles idea"(because you can never control what happens in the cave before or after your team passes), but ymmv ...

I only pay attention to MY line-markers because I can´t trust anyone elses...they are supposed to be identifiable even in no-viz...

 

[lamont]

i'm talking about your other team members swimming over a change in line arrows and not noticing -- and then on a low viz exit, hitting an arrow pointing the wrong way that they didn't see on the way in.

If you´re going to have an argument each time you encounter an unknown cookie in a cave, you´re going to have a lot of them? TBH that sounds about as bright as the "drop bottles idea"(because you can never control what happens in the cave before or after your team passes), but ymmv ...

I only pay attention to MY line-markers because I can´t trust anyone elses...they are supposed to be identifiable even in no-viz...

 

[grazie42]

i'm talking about your other team members swimming over a change in line arrows and not noticing -- and then on a low viz exit, hitting an arrow pointing the wrong way that they didn't see on the way in.

I get that but...
-If you mark all directional changes with your own ndms/dms(as appropriate), then it doesen´t matter if arrows are pointing backwards, forwards or sideways, until you see your marker you keep going...IMO anyone who starts second-guessing themselves on an exit is "broken" and should place himself/be placed in the center where he can be "cared for" by the team...

-If you put a cookie behind the 1st arrow pointing against your direction of travel, do you put one after the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on? Won´t that "waste" lots of cookies, slow you down and generally not tell you anything that you should already know?

I´m just trying to understand your procedure and try to see if there are any benefits I hadn´t thought about...

 

[ucfdiver]

I get that but...
-If you mark all directional changes with your own ndms/dms(as appropriate), then it doesen´t matter if arrows are pointing backwards, forwards or sideways, until you see your marker you keep going...IMO anyone who starts second-guessing themselves on an exit is "broken" and should place himself/be placed in the center where he can be "cared for" by the team...

I'm not perfect. Part of diving the buddy system for me, is a redundant human brain. If I can't trust my buddy, I consider myself solo diving, and solo diving in a cave certainly isn't for me.

 

[Thalassamania]

I'm not perfect. Part of diving the buddy system for me, is a redundant human brain. If I can't trust my buddy, I consider myself solo diving, and solo diving in a cave certainly isn't for me.

We even have a signal for, "Let's buddy brain." Five fingers of one hand tapped against your head twice.

 

[lamont]

I get that but...
-If you mark all directional changes with your own ndms/dms(as appropriate), then it doesen´t matter if arrows are pointing backwards, forwards or sideways, until you see your marker you keep going...IMO anyone who starts second-guessing themselves on an exit is "broken" and should place himself/be placed in the center where he can be "cared for" by the team...

-If you put a cookie behind the 1st arrow pointing against your direction of travel, do you put one after the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on? Won´t that "waste" lots of cookies, slow you down and generally not tell you anything that you should already know?

I´m just trying to understand your procedure and try to see if there are any benefits I hadn´t thought about...

The point is that the whole team drops a cookie at the first change in directional arrows in order for the whole team to be on the same page as to the change in navigational arrows.

If your buddies just fly over a change in directional arrow and you mentally note it or drop a cookie without the team getting involved, then you could wind up with a problem on the exit. The problem would come about if you're not exiting first and you come across a siltout in the area where the line arrow is (or any line arrow pointing the wrong way). If the diver in the lead on the exit in a low viz situation hits a line arrow going the other way that could cause confusion as to which direction to go, if that diver with the confusion is in front of you then you now potentially have a problem. And you can't know that the diver in front is going to get confused by the line arrow before they get there, so there's no way to sandwich them in advance.

So, its better for everyone to stop at the first change in directional markers and drop a cookie. That way whoever is leading on the way out will be expecting to hit directional markers going the other way. That keeps the team on the same page, which keeps me safer.

And you don't have to mark every single one. You should be expecting to come to wrong directional markers until you hit the one where you find your cookie, then you should expect them to all be going the correct direction. Once you've picked up your cookie you have the warm fuzzy feeling that you're going the right way. And once the whole team has their cookies picked up there should be meta-fuzzies about everyone knowing they're going the right way.

 

[Mauser]

I am sure it has been covered but why do you put all your deco bottles on one side with DIR