Near-DIR diving: Are there DIR things you would probably never do?

[grazie42]

Unfortunately while there are 5-10 minutes worth of planning for when things go right... There's alot more to manage when stuff goes wrong. And as we all know from here, its easy to talk a good talk.

I don´t think so...

You agree that you´re doing the dive together (eg not solo), you confirm that signals mean the same thing to both (and basic procedures), you agree to a plan(including deco) and "turn-arounds"...what else is there?

Granted, I´ve never had a true emergency with an "insta-buddy" but I honestly haven´t seen any of these "accidents waiting to happen" that so many people talk about in the water...on a techdive...then again, most of those who talk about it also say that they "never dive with strangers" so maybe that´s why...

It comes down to (IMO), individual risk-aversity and perception of risk where we obviously differ on the latter (on this topic) and perhaps(but maybe not) on the former...there really is no "right or wrong" here but I´d like to think that as I base my perception of risk on real experiences rather than "prejudice", mine is more valid than yours...ymmv

 

[RiverRat]

and generally speaking good problem resolution skills are mostly learnt in classes..

I would say, especially given GUE/DIR training and drills, I would agree for the most part. One thing I'd like to do more of is practice/drill / skills but there are quite a few divers that just don't want to commit to it. Practicing until the skills are "automatic" does provide a lot of benefit when things go brown. But I also think there are many "skills" that you just can't learn in a class/pool. You need to really get out and dive and suffer some "failures" to learn and become a better diver. The key is knowing that some failures can and will happen, to expect it, and to be ready to deal with said failures (this falls in line with practicing skills so it's automatic).

So when everyone here says "its all about the instructor!" I agree with that. If you have "no name" (to me) tech or cave instruction I don't want to dive with you at those levels.

I don't necessarily agree with that. You can have the greatest instructor in the world, but if the student is not receptive to learning, or is close minded about some things then he's not going to get the full benefit of that instructor's training. On the flip side, you could have a student that is very eager to learn and pull whatever he can from a so-so instructor. The student will seek out the knowledge he wants wherever he can get it. By using multiple instructors, dive buddies, whatever.

Of course if both are on the same page, and really are in "sync", both mentally and physically, skills etc. then you've really got something.

 

[rjack321]

You agree that you´re doing the dive together (eg not solo), you confirm that signals mean the same thing to both (and basic procedures), you agree to a plan(including deco) and "turn-arounds"...what else is there?

Do you honestly think that's all their is to deco/cave dives??

How do you organize the team when you have light failures?
How do you adjust the deco plan when something unforseen happens?
How do you move efficiently when things are going sideways, or does your newfound friend have a complete brainfart when confronted with a new problem?

If you think all classes are the same you are seriously mistaken. For instance, I recently learned that at least some NAUI tech classes don't include "midwater" failures. So when your new tech buddy has a leaking 1st stage on their deco bottle and they re-pressurize it at the gas switch to a shower of bubbles, can they hold their stop and fix it? Or is that scenario too much for them to handle? Some agencies are teaching divers to drop their bottles in the ocean. That's a big deal to me but something I would never have to ask my buddies or people trained like me. How about exiting a cave on backup lights or in poo vis. Some classes spend less time on this than I would like. Does your new buddy have enough bandwidth to navigate accurately in low light or poor vis?

So you've done due diligence selecting an awesome non-DIR, non-GUE instructor, good for you. Knowing there are some really crappy tech/cave instructors out there would you dive with any of their students? They have the card, the can talk the talk.

I am much pickier than that. GUE and DIR gives me a huge pool of potential buddies to choose from, more than I can dive with in a lifetime. So I don't have a big need to research the training and skills of any possible buddy, I'd rather spend that effort diving.

 

[Thalassamania]

Do you honestly think that's all their is to deco/cave dives??

How do you organize the team when you have light failures?
How do you adjust the deco plan when something unforseen happens?
How do you move efficiently when things are going sideways, or does your newfound friend have a complete brainfart when confronted with a new problem?

If you think all classes are the same you are seriously mistaken. For instance, I recently learned that at least some NAUI tech classes don't include "midwater" failures. So when your new tech buddy has a leaking 1st stage on their deco bottle and they re-pressurize it at the gas switch to a shower of bubbles, can they hold their stop and fix it? Or is that scenario too much for them to handle? Some agencies are teaching divers to drop their bottles in the ocean. That's a big deal to me but something I would never have to ask my buddies or people trained like me. How about exiting a cave on backup lights or in poo vis. Some classes spend less time on this than I would like. Does your new buddy have enough bandwidth to navigate accurately in low light or poor vis?

So you've done due diligence selecting an awesome non-DIR, non-GUE instructor, good for you. Knowing there are some really crappy tech/cave instructors out there would you dive with any of their students? They have the card, the can talk the talk.

I am much pickier than that. GUE and DIR gives me a huge pool of potential buddies to choose from, more than I can dive with in a lifetime. So I don't have a big need to research the training and skills of any possible buddy, I'd rather spend that effort diving.

Spot on, for simple O/W dives as well as the most complex wreck penetration or cave dive. The Scripps model science diving community offers an alternative to GUE/DIR that yields very similar overall results, but that path is not, unfortunatly, available to many on a signup and pay for the class basis.

 

[rjack321]

Spot on, for simple O/W dives as well as the most complex wreck penetration or cave dive. The Scripps model science diving community offers an alternative to GUE/DIR that yields very similar overall results, but that path is not, unfortunatly, available to many on a signup and pay for the class basis.

I definately understand that some "teams" have this coordination and mutual understanding outside the GUE/DIR community. I dive as a volunteer with my local aquarium and while neither their equipment nor protocols are really at all DIR-like they do work.
Relative to my personal recreational approach the aquarium approach is sometimes:
less efficient (too much adjusting + poor fit of universal backplates),
more efficient (full face mask comm links),
or so different they aren't comparable (surface hooka with reserve tank).

The common thing is that there is a structure and common way of doing things in this (aquarium) group. Its not free form and reinvented ad lib.

 

[Thalassamania]

The common thing is that there is a structure and common way of doing things in this (aquarium) group. Its not free form and reinvented ad lib.

That's key. As is the fact that all the procedures and equipment choices have been evolved through the community as the product of lengthy meetings between experts and responsible parties. There is no ad hoc or ad lib.

 

[rjack321]

It not all top down. There's feedback on successes and failures going up/around too. The aquarium has an evolving system just like DIR does within the confines of my recreational diving buddies. See threads on the MODs of GUE standard gasses and the most "thoughtful way" to mark them as a good example.

The way I would characterize it is...
"Decisions are not made in isolation." Sometimes I am directly part of those decisions, sometimes I'm not and they need to be explained to me. But after they are explained to me I accept the rationale and (most often) utilize the "new way". Sometimes I retain both the new and old ways. The 2 versions of the valve drill are a good example of that.

 

[Thalassamania]

It not all top down. There's feedback on successes and failures going up/around too. The aquarium has an evolving system just like DIR does within the confines of my recreational diving buddies. See threads on the MODs of GUE standard gasses and the most "thoughtful way" to mark them as a good example.

The way I would characterize it is...
"Decisions are not made in isolation." Sometimes I am directly part of those decisions, sometimes I'm not and they need to be explained to me. But after they are explained to me I accept the rationale and (most often) utilize the "new way". Sometimes I retain both the new and old ways. The 2 versions of the valve drill are a good example of that.

Sorry, I was unclear, that's what I meant by experts, those who are doing it.

 

[grazie42]

Do you honestly think that's all their is to deco/cave dives??

-How do you organize the team when you have light failures?
-How do you adjust the deco plan when something unforseen happens?
-How do you move efficiently when things are going sideways, or does your newfound friend have a complete brainfart when confronted with a new problem?
-So when your new tech buddy has a leaking 1st stage on their deco bottle and they re-pressurize it at the gas switch to a shower of bubbles, can they hold their stop and fix it?

-Light failiures? Weakest link in the middle (if 3 man team), otherwise in front...
-Adjusting deco? The "common" failiures are known and planned for, the uncommon ones? You´ll just have to improvise won´t you?
-Brainfarts? Well, those can happen to anyone, regardless of training, you deal as best you can...what is the GUE-procedure for brainfarts?
-Not being able to hold stops? Perhaps I´m silly to believe that self-preservation would keep anyone who can´t hold them from doing deco-dives? I´ve never seen anyone who can´t in the water but I suppose there are some around...if that´s the case you pad deco, survive the dive and talk about it on the surface...

Some agencies are teaching divers to drop their bottles in the ocean. That's a big deal to me but something I would never have to ask my buddies or people trained like me. How about exiting a cave on backup lights or in poo vis. Some classes spend less time on this than I would like. Does your new buddy have enough bandwidth to navigate accurately in low light or poor vis?

-Dropping bottles? Seems like a very expensive way to dive and I have a hard time believing that to be the case...anyway, they´ll have to deco out on backgas and I´ll have to stay with them (this is one of the backup-plans anyway)...I wouldn´t let them borrow my bottles to shorten the deco though
-Exiting on backups? This is taught in all cave-classes (it´s required?! Isn´t exiting on backups one of those things that happens on almost all exits during training?) I don´t know how much time is enough? Exiting on backup seems pretty trivial to me so I don´t even see what the issue would be TBH...
-Poor viz? Everyone does no-light exits in their classes?! poor or low wiz should be a walk in the park and navigation is everyones personal responsibility so I wouldn´t trust anyone elses(unless I had to)...if we have an unsoluble disagreement about the "right way", we´ll both have to take our chances won´t we?...same as with a known buddy? It´s your life, your responsibility?!

I am much pickier than that. GUE and DIR gives me a huge pool of potential buddies to choose from, more than I can dive with in a lifetime. So I don't have a big need to research the training and skills of any possible buddy, I'd rather spend that effort diving.

That´s fine, you are certainly entitled to dive how or with whoever you want...For me, your approach is restrictive and I percieve the risks associated with my way as a lot lower than you obviously do...

 

[b1gcountry]

I don't think RJack was implying you wouldn't have procedures to deal with all these problems, just that your procedures might be different than his, thus prompting a longer amount of time discussing things on the surface. In a recreational setting, it's the difference between saying "Min deco to 80'. Halfs. Heads out of the water at 65min. Watch for Six-gills." and having to spend a lot more time on the planning. In those 15 words, two DIR divers have agreed on mix, turn pressure, (assuming they have the same size tanks) Deco schedule, max dive time, and max depth. They theoretically also have the same set of signals, the same emergency procedures, and they don't have to bother with trying to figure out how the other guy inflates his BC, or where he stashes his octo.

There's a lot of really good divers out there I would dive with who don't know thing one about DIR, but then it means I'm going to be going over how the long hose is deployed, what our ascent is going to look like, what hand and light signals I'll be using, and what gear they are wearing.

Tom

Tom