Question NAUI leaves WRSTC?

[cerich]

There are dozens of certification agencies, some larger than others but essentially they all do the same thing: teach people how to dive. They provide one a plastic card that says so.

Now, many of mentioned agencies don't agrer with others on what is the "best" or "right" way to teach scuba, some are commercially oriented while others can be some non profit or whatever. Sometimes the differences or disagreements are minor, nuances, sometimes not.

But what is for sure, is that many of them have recognized a problem that we often see being questioned here: "I have a X certification, want to go diving vacation in country Y, will my X c-card be accepted even if the dive operation is affiliated with Z agency???"

Those are probably the majority of divers, the largest chunk of OW and AOW (or * and **, or whatever name the agency has invented) and I think of RSTC as some sort of council between various agencies to accept one the other's basic certifications so people won't be concerned with those when going diving in different places and finding some unfamiliar operators affiliated with some other agencies and not necessarily the ones with the logo on your card.

It probably makes the scuba business better for everyone involved, both the training agencies and us, customes/divers.

The minority of divers have more advanced training certifications, and many agencies think that the difference or gap is so large, that if you are you are, say, an instructor of agency X and want to work in a different location that certifies for Y, they may require some "cross over training".

The RSTC does nothing to facilitate recognition of c cards or previous training between agencies, nor is it a requirement for members. That is not a goal of the RSTC.

 

[cerich]

Fascinating

it's also speculative, a bit naïve and incorrect.

 

[lairdb]

The RSTC does nothing to facilitate recognition of c cards or previous training between agencies, nor is it a requirement for members. That is not a goal of the RSTC.

Functionally, it has those effects though, as do many standards councils in many industries. By documenting and promoting common minimum standards, such a body provides plausible explanations and (functionally) liability mitigation for cross-recognition, etc.

 

[Jai Bar]

The RSTC does nothing to facilitate recognition of c cards or previous training between agencies, nor is it a requirement for members. That is not a goal of the RSTC.

But it does, by promoting worldwide safety of the recreational diving public, international consistency of training standards and worldwide credibility of the WRSTC. This allows, among other things, the portability of certifications.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is an example of one agency that is NOT in the RSTC:

Scuba Divers of America - SDA Scuba Certification Agency

www.divesda.com

This is a scam organization that has been going on for many, many years. Its owner was kicked out of NAUI years ago. I have not checked for a long time, but the last time I did, the official address for the agency was a vacant lot.

But if you want, you can contact them and get all kinds of certifications that should not be recognized by anyone.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Here is an example of one agency that is NOT in the RSTC:

Scuba Divers of America - SDA Scuba Certification Agency

www.divesda.com

This is a scam organization that has been going on for many, many years. Its owner was kicked out of NAUI years ago. I have not checked for a long time, but the last time I did, the official address for the agency was a vacant lot.

But if you want, you can contact them and get all kinds of certifications that should not be recognized by anyone.

I didn't see GUE listed either.
So does that mean they are a scam organization as well?
If an agency is not a member of the WRSTC does that mean they are not worthy?

 

[boulderjohn]

I didn't see GUE listed either.
So does that mean they are a scam organization as well?
If an agency is not a member of the WRSTC does that mean they are not worthy?

I am sorry that this is so hard for you to understand. I will try to explain it in the simplest possible terms.

• Members of the RSTC agree to follow at least a certain set of standards. They may add to that list of standards.
• If you use an agency that is part of the RSTC, then you know that the agency's standards meet at least a certain published level.
• If you use an agency that is not part of the RSTC. You do not have that assurance.
• If you do not have that assurance, you will have to do your own due diligence to determine if the standards are acceptable to you.
• Some agency will meet or exceed those standards.
• Some will not.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I am sorry that this is so hard for you to understand. I will try to explain it in the simplest possible terms.

• Members of the RSTC agree to follow at least a certain set of standards. They may add to that list of standards.
• If you use an agency that is part of the RSTC, then you know that the agency's standards meet at least a certain published level.
• If you use an agency that is not part of the RSTC. You do not have that assurance.
• If you do not have that assurance, you will have to do your own due diligence to determine if the standards are acceptable to you.
• Some agency will meet or exceed those standards.
• Some will not.

Thank you.

 

[lowwall]

There are dozens of certification agencies, some larger than others but essentially they all do the same thing: teach people how to dive. They provide one a plastic card that says so.

Now, many of mentioned agencies don't agrer with others on what is the "best" or "right" way to teach scuba, some are commercially oriented while others can be some non profit or whatever. Sometimes the differences or disagreements are minor, nuances, sometimes not.

But what is for sure, is that many of them have recognized a problem that we often see being questioned here: "I have a X certification, want to go diving vacation in country Y, will my X c-card be accepted even if the dive operation is affiliated with Z agency???"
Those are probably the majority of divers, the largest chunk of OW and AOW (or * and **, or whatever name the agency has invented) and I think of RSTC as some sort of council between various agencies to accept one the other's basic certifications so people won't be concerned with those when going diving in different places and finding some unfamiliar operators affiliated with some other agencies and not necessarily the ones with the logo on your card.

The RSTC was set up by the for-profit training agencies for the for-profit training agencies. NAUI and YMCA were conspicuous by their absence from the start. CMAS and BSAC are noticeably missing from the WRSTC and RSTC Europe.

The big motivator for the for-profits getting together was to head off state and federal regulation of recreational diving. They like to claim that it was to keep scuba from being outlawed entirely or regulated as rigidly as OSHA does (or at least is supposed to do). But we were already beyond that point by the mid-80s. I believe it's more likely that their real concern was that any regulation would be based on the program of one of the big non-profits who all had much lengthier minimum training requirements for OW certification than the for-profits. This would have eliminated the greatest sales advantage of the for-profits.

Another motivation was rising liability costs. Where one agency had a lesser training standard than another, it made it too easy for an injured diver to claim that the training was inadequate. By synchronizing the minimums, it usually became a question of whether the minimum was followed which was much easier for the agencies to enforce and thus defend against in court.

A happy side effect of all the big for-profits having the same minimum standards for the basic courses was indeed hat the certs are more or less interchangeable and thus can be easily recognized and accepted by ops and for cross selling further training. Note that these standards don't neatly align with BSAC and CMAS levels, which does complicate things for those wishing to cross over or perhaps even dive in countries where those organizations dominate dive training.

The RSTC also came up with a standardized medical form. On its face this form merely makes a potential diver aware of the many health conditions which could affect them and asks them to follow up with their doctor, but the cynical take is that it designed to ensure maximum lying so an injured diver could be attacked in court even if the injury had nothing to do with the incorrect entries on the form.

Speaking of AOW, it is not an actual RSTC standard. The only RSTC/WRSTC training standards other than for the dive training professionals are: Introductory Scuba Experience (aka Discovery Dive), Supervised Diver (allows diving under supervision of a DM or Instructor to a max depth of 12m/40'), Open Water Diver, Enriched Air Nitrox Diver, and Entry Level Rescue Diver. This means that according to their own (literal) standard, Open Water is all you need to go to all the limits of recreation diving which they define as no deco and 40m. They do state that a divers' personal limits are subject to their individual experience and training, but there's neither a requirement nor a standard for AOW or Deep or anything else.

Of course the reality is that the average course today by the various RSTC members is so abbreviated that the fresh OW diver is barely beyond the level of the Supervised Diver as that standard was originally envisioned. This is why so many operators now insist on seeing an AOW cert before they will treat you as an actual OW diver.

 

[boulderjohn]

Of course the reality is that the average course today by the various RSTC members is so abbreviated that the fresh OW diver is barely beyond the level of the Supervised Diver as that standard was originally envisioned. This is why so many operators now insist on seeing an AOW cert before they will treat you as an actual OW diver.

Please identify the specific standards that have been removed since the RSTC was established. If no standards have been removed, please tell how the courses have otherwise been abbreviated.