NACD Intro - 58cf Limit - Why?

[JamesK]

As to invoking the JB incident ... that's just plain silly. What we see there is a failure of an instructor to supervise students properly (well ... perhaps it is a failure of an instructor to be able to supervise students properly, but the effect is the same). And, according to some reports the students were in doubles: "Sorenson said the students’ big mistake was using double back-mount tanks instead of the smaller single-tank side-mounted tank they needed in the tight space they entered. The larger tanks had wedged them in."
Slingshot, Y-valve, H-Valve, in all cases a valve that lets you attach two regulators to a single tank.
"Score" is not the question, rationality is ... the topic here is, if I might be so bold as to remind you, "NACD Intro ..." No one is suggesting the use of singles for anything but an intro class, and even then, I, at least, am suggesting that, at a bare minimum, a single tank need carry two regulators.

The students were in doubles. AJ's point was that if they had been in singles, they might not have made it home safely.

Thanks for clearing up the slingshot. I have never heard it called that.

As for your regulator suggestion, it is a standard. You need to first stages. I still do not feel like a single tank is enough redundancy.

Erm, sorry, not following ... Is there a picture or something?

Tapatalk by Droid

I thinks he is being a dirty little perv.

 

[PfcAJ]

I see where this is headed, personal attacks and ego-maniacal chest thump rather than reasoned discourse. Not unexpected, but disappointing never-the-less.

As to invoking the JB incident ... that's just plain silly. What we see there is a failure of an instructor to supervise students properly (well ... perhaps it is a failure of an instructor to be able to supervise students properly, but the effect is the same). And, according to some reports the students were in doubles: "Sorenson said the students’ big mistake was using double back-mount tanks instead of the smaller single-tank side-mounted tank they needed in the tight space they entered. The larger tanks had wedged them in."
Slingshot, Y-valve, H-Valve, in all cases a valve that lets you attach two regulators to a single tank.
"Score" is not the question, rationality is ... the topic here is, if I might be so bold as to remind you, "NACD Intro ..." No one is suggesting the use of singles for anything but an intro class, and even then, I, at least, am suggesting that, at a bare minimum, a single tank need carry two regulators.

Thal (what is your real name, anyway?), you simply don't know what you're talking about here. You don't cave dive. The rest of us do, and we do it often. You've also told me in other posts that you don't think you'd learn anything in a cave class.

Cave dives don't always go as planned. Sometimes, things go tits-up, as in the JB case. Those divers got into an area too small for the instructor to follow (how that happened is besides the point. It HAPPENED).

Fyi, intro classes DO require the use of two first stages. I'm unaware of any intro/ cave 1 class that allows the use of only one. But having two regs on one tank doesn't give you what you really need in cave diving, which is increased volume.

There is nothing "reasonable" about diving in a cave with a single tank. You're starting out highly disadvantaged. For what? Don't want to spend the cash on doubles? Nickel Rocketry. Don't want to learn to use them? Short cuts.

Nickel rocketry and short cuts. The stuff that REALLY kills divers. Even a 'rational' guy like yourself should be able to see that. You do know that 'intro divers' can go off and cave dive unsupervised, right?

And Jax, the community is changing. Both agencies that I did my cave training with required doubles. No single tank option. But you're right that non-cave divers seem to think they know what's best.

 

[ianr33]

Ok, I see where this is headed. More comments on cave diving from the non-cave certified peanut gallery.

Leadership personell? Two guys got LOST in JB 2 weeks ago. Come on. With a single tank, the clock is ticking. Fast.

If the instructor had a single tank he might have been able to follow the students...................

I believe a single reg is not within standards for intro. A Y/H/Whatever you want to call it valve is required.
Which is totally academic to me anyway as I'm not going to use any of them.

 

[Jax]

And Jax, the community is changing. Both agencies that I did my cave training with required doubles. No single tank option. But you're right that non-cave divers seem to think they know what's best.

You're jumping to extremes, again, hon. "I agree with your standards" does NOT equate to "we know what is best for you."

For a REAL "we know what is best" attitude, check out the bills in Congress.

Tapatalk by Droid

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal (what is your real name, anyway?),

That's not particularly relevant, the strength of an argument does not rest of an appeal to authority, but rather on it's quality.

you simply don't know what you're talking about here. You don't cave dive. The rest of us do, and we do it often. You've also told me in other posts that you don't think you'd learn anything in a cave class.

Yes, if I were needing to cave dive I would not be looking for a cave class, I'd be doing a lot of reading and looking for a good series of check-rides, just as a champion pylon racer who'd been flying a Bearcat would not be looking to retake his private license to transition to a Sea Fury. But you don't seem to recognize that there are other competent pilots out there, most of whom are your equal and some of whom are your better.

Cave dives don't always go as planned. Sometimes, things go tits-up, as in the JB case. Those divers got into an area too small for the instructor to follow (how that happened is besides the point. It HAPPENED).

No, how it happened is obvious to even the least experienced observer, an instructor who was unfamiliar with the training location took two students out anyway and almost killed them as a result.

Fyi, intro classes DO require the use of two first stages. I'm unaware of any intro/ cave 1 class that allows the use of only one. But having two regs on one tank doesn't give you what you really need in cave diving, which is increased volume.

Did I say otherwise, or is it just that you like to fight? My only point is that a competent instructor could (not should, could) conduct an intro class with his or her students using a single tank with two regs. That's all.

There is nothing "reasonable" about diving in a cave with a single tank. You're starting out highly disadvantaged. For what? Don't want to spend the cash on doubles? Nickel Rocketry. Don't want to learn to use them? Short cuts.

Nickel rocketry and short cuts. The stuff that REALLY kills divers. Even a 'rational' guy like yourself should be able to see that. You do know that 'intro divers' can go off and cave dive unsupervised, right?

Wow, "Nickel rocketry" and "short cuts," modern replacements for "farm animal stupid," ad-hockery" and "stroke"? Some things never seem to change.

Let's face it, cave diving with anything but the best, most reliable and most dependable gear (often the most expensive) can always be categorized as "Nickel rocketry" and "short cuts," do you happen to own a custom, low cross-section, graphite fiber, hard suit? No? Why what kind of "Nickel rocketry" and "short cuts" are you engaged in? You see, we all know what we all are, we're just arguing about the price.

And Jax, the community is changing. Both agencies that I did my cave training with required doubles. No single tank option. But you're right that non-cave divers seem to think they know what's best.

If you know what is best why are you having such a hard time making your case that you have to drag in strawmen that were never proposed and accidents that have nothing to do with your point? Make your case ... go ahead, we're all still waiting for it.

 

[JamesK]

Yes, if I were needing to cave dive I would not be looking for a cave class, I'd be doing a lot of reading and looking for a good series of check-rides, just as a champion pylon racer who'd been flying a Bearcat would not be looking to retake his private license to transition to a Sea Fury. But you don't seem to recognize that there are other competent pilots out there, most of whom are your equal and some of whom are your better.

Now this part disturbs the hell out of me. I do not know your diving experience, but I do know that cave diving can not be learned in a book. Going to a cave class is NOT equivalent to retaking your pilots license to switch planes. It is your series of check rides as you call them. I am perplexed by this. I worry about the ego of someone who thinks they can not learn anything in a class. You don't seem to recognize that no matter how much you know, you can always learn.

 

[Jax]

Now this part disturbs the hell out of me. I do not know your diving experience, but I do know that cave diving can not be learned in a book. Going to a cave class is NOT equivalent to retaking your pilots license to switch planes. It is your series of check rides as you call them. I am perplexed by this. I worry about the ego of someone who thinks they can not learn anything in a class. You don't seem to recognize that no matter how much you know, you can always learn.

James, I think he is saying he would find an instructor to take him through via private classes. Or, at least, I took it that way.

As for reading all the books . . . that's what the student is supposed to do before class, right? Studying in prep for class?

 

[gcarter]

Now this part disturbs the hell out of me. I do not know your diving experience, but I do know that cave diving can not be learned in a book. Going to a cave class is NOT equivalent to retaking your pilots license to switch planes. It is your series of check rides as you call them. I am perplexed by this. I worry about the ego of someone who thinks they can not learn anything in a class. You don't seem to recognize that no matter how much you know, you can always learn.

I don't see anything in what he wrote that indicates he is unaware of the gaps in his knowledge or that he thinks he has nothing to learn.

I see someone who is significantly more open minded, and who would avail himself of the best sources he can find, regardless of where he finds them. That isn't necessarily in a pre-programmed class, or with an instructor who is very rigid or one-dimensional in their approach.

IMO the ego comes through much more strongly from other posters here.

 

[Thalassamania]

OK, let's try it out front.

Imagine Dirk Pitt, a diver who has:

• been diving for more than 50 years.
• has dove every environment that there is to dive on earth, with the exception of long cave penetrations, including icebergs, deep wrecks, even hot springs in a cold water suit.
• has been under the Arctic and Antarctic ice.
• has saturated in underwater habitats.
• has been teaching diving scientists and others for more than 40 years.
• was a pioneer in introducing the science community first to computers and NITROX and then to mixed gas and rebreathers, long before the public, or even the cave community, saw any of them.

Then let's stipulate that:

• he has shown himself to be virtually impossible to panic.
• has plus or minus three inch buoyancy control.
• has never left a silt trail anywhere in his life.
• can cut tables for virtually any mix on the fly in his head, etc.

What is this person going to learn from in a cave diving course that he would not better learn from reading and a few good check-dives with, say Edd or Bozanic, or someother serious expert?

How far back from Dirk Pitt do we have to move him before said cave diving course has real utility?

 

[ucfdiver]

James, I think he is saying he would find an instructor to take him through via private classes. Or, at least, I took it that way.

As for reading all the books . . . that's what the student is supposed to do before class, right? Studying in prep for class?

Are you aware of what a check ride is? Knowing that leave little room for misinterpretation.