My questionable rebreather training experience

[victorzamora]

Do instructors really have that much freedom to vary from the cert agency requirements?

..If that's a common practice, that tends to reinforce some of by skepticism on the trend towards 'official' certification required for darn near everything. I certainly yield to greater base of knowledge.. But darn! If an agency can't maintain some form of consistency, than how am I that much better off vs having a trusted buddy/mentor show me the ropes?

There are plenty of people better suited to answer this question than myself, but I'll tell you that there's plenty of reason to get the "official" cert, but many of the "specialties" could be served just as well through proper mentorship. The "official" certs do have standards that the instructors have to follow. One thing TDI does that I truly appreciate is publishing their standards....so check them out for a Tech course you're familiar with and one you want to take or haven't taken. They certainly spell out minimums, skills&drills to be covered, things to be discussed, etc. Some instructors well exceed the minimums and others vaguely get in the general area of the minimums and call it good enough.....like taking your AOW class to 61ft, even though the entire group had to stay at 59ft they got to see the instructor's computer read out >60ft so that's their "deep dive."

My point was simply that the agencies require drills but don't specify the details. For example, they'll require "lights out drills" but don't specify what kind of exit to teach. Some instructors teach in-line (one diver immediately behind the other, constant contact) while others teach "bump-and-go" and others teach this stacked/nested on-the-elbow type swim-out. I haven't yet come across an agency that specified which type of lights-out exit to use. I haven't come across an agency that officially recommends one lost-line drill over the rest....but they all require it (as far as I'm aware).

 

[tbone1004]

that's moronic

you mean dangerous?

@Caveeagle
yes they really do. There are "accepted norms" but not requirements. Why I teach NAUI instead of PADI, I have almost complete flexibility in how I want to teach as long as some basics are covered. Most agencies will give you a list of stuff that you have to teach and have the students execute during the course, but the specific how is not forced.

Here are some examples of deviation in backmount since there is an established standard with the GUE rig *not implying it's a rigid standard, but you can certainly look at one and tell what it is when you see it*

Do you hog loop your long hose, or do you tuck it into elastics on one of the tanks? The brits strap the long hose in, we don't, but you have the flexibility to do whichever you prefer.
Do you put your backup lights on the harness strapped down, or do you have them face up tucked in epaulets, or are they on a helmet if you choose to wear one?
Are stage and deco bottles right rich, left lean? or does everything go on the left?
Does your wing inflator come from the left post or the right?
Do you dive with a manifold? If so, is it isolatable or just a crossbar?
Is your computer on the right or left?
Where do you put your reels? Hip, butt, pocket, d-ring on tank band?
Do you use an Air2?
Do you use a waist strap mounted knife?
Is your canister butt mounted under your cylinders? Strapped to your cylinders? On your waist strap?
Wrist compass or navigation slate?
Transpac or hard backplate?
Quick releases or one piece harness?

Lots and lots and lots of options to deviate just from the rig. Some agencies require standardization and for good reason, it works, but it may limit some adjustments. I dive a mostly DIR compliant rig most of the time because it is what I have now found to be the best, but still like my O2 bottle on the right and diving with independent doubles.

In the cave course side
OOA diver in front or in back?
Do you have a horizontal signal for caution with a vertical for emergency, all vertical, all horizontal, or direction doesn't matter but frequency does?
Bump and go or touch contact for zero vis? If touch contact, is it leg or arm?
Spool or reel for emergency? jumps?
Primary light on left hand or right?

Lots more stuff that you could talk about where the instructors have the freedom and should have the freedom to teach what they think is best and why while exposing the students to different options and ideally allowing them to choose what they think is best.

In sidemount the list is incredibly massive, with a lot of redundancy from above, but the easy and obvious ones
Long hose on the left, right, both, or neither?
40", 5', or 7' long hose?
Do you share air with a long hose, or pass bottles?

Letting the instructor have some freedom and flexibility with things like this allow for progress to be made. There are certain standards for safety that have to be met, but if there is more than one way to skin that cat, then you should find the way that you think is best to skin it.

 

[victorzamora]

that's moronic

...and I'm not sure it's the dumbest thing I've heard that instructor say and/or do.

 

[Wookie]

But darn! If an agency can't maintain some form of consistency, than how am I that much better off vs having a trusted buddy/mentor show me the ropes?

Another light is lit in the dark.

Edit. I think many training agencies truly want to turn out a superior product. I think many instructors want to do what is right. I think many dive boat operators want to provide a safe, fun, inexpensive (pick any 2) experience for their customers. Then, the checking account runs low, because the weather is bad, or there was an unexpected engine rebuild, or the student is almost not challenged, but not quite, but is a really nice person, and is really trying hard to get it, and we'll just stretch the rules just a little. Normalization of deviance is the term used many times here.

So, we'll let the standards slip a little and not do the BCD remove replace at the surface, or we'll go out one crewmember short because it's better to be short than take the drunk guy along, or we think that QA was filed because the instructor is trying to "get back" at the store owner, or the owner of the training agency is 110 years old and thinks we all need yoga to be an effective tech diver, and pretty soon, you see what is being described by the OP.

So, how do you stop it? NASDS had a very effective training program that was unsustainable in the era of 3 day $99 open water classes, so you can't ask the training agencies to do more, and the consumer sees that there is such a thing as a $99 OW class, and don't understand why they should pay $499 or more, so you can't ask them to do more, and RSTC and DEMA are basically puppets of the 800 lb gorilla, and they are running around with no clothes on in the rain talking about how sunny it is and my, aren't I pretty in this new dress, so they are useless at best, and instructors just do what they are taught by course directors trying to make a buck, and ..... the list goes on and you get my point.

A trusted buddy/mentor ain't such a bad choice, except the operator wants to see a card to start with.

 

[cerich]

e others teach "bump-and-go" and others teach this stacked/nested on-the-elbow type swim-out. .

let's call that by it's proper name "bump and lose"

 

[tbone1004]

But darn! If an agency can't maintain some form of consistency, than how am I that much better off vs having a trusted buddy/mentor show me the ropes?

if the guy is legit, then you aren't. That's how it used to be done, now it's just "official" mentoring. Unless you need the card for any reason, I am a bigger advocate for proper mentoring than formal instruction. The other advantage is proper mentoring encourages progressive advancement instead of jumps

 

[jffknapp]

I'm gonna hop in mid thread and give a shout out to my trainers. And the key word is "trainers."

I think people tend to get focused on their goals and we try to rush to get there. Even a half-*ss instructor can create an amazing diver if that diver takes the time to get good at his craft. A great instructor is, in my mind, a better springboard for greatness. The diver still has to take the time to get good. I often roll my eyes when someone shows up to dive the Spiegel Grove as a nine dive AOW. But then I have to remind myself, I was a nine dive AOW. The difference was I spent 50 dives in Lake Rawlings, VA (AMAZING) getting my trim, breathing, buoyancy, and overall awareness up to speed before my first ocean dives. On my recreational certifications I have one instructor's name. Jim McNeal from The Dive Shop in Richmond, VA taught me A TON, but not everything. Practice and experience taught me just as much. I knew I had to branch outside my central VA box to get other points of view. Pam Bradley was my CD when I decided to become an instructor, and she was amazing! Key Largo dives completely different than VA & NC. Pam's way of training was completely different from Jim's, and Key Largo requires different skill sets for instructors compared to a land based, quarry diving, dive shop.

When I got into technical diving I wasn't taught well. My instructor hadn't been tech diving in years, didn't own doubles. I was never taught a valve drill. I didn't know any better though. I had been doing dives to 180+ in St. Croix and cant believe how dumb*ss lucky I was once I learned what I didn't know. When I moved to Key Largo I got really lucky. I had gone through the numbers on moving to KL several times in the past but never pulled the trigger. I got really lucky when Dan Dawson offered me a job at Horizon Divers. Dan has more than a decade of diving Key Largo. Horizon Divers has been chalked full of technical divers. Not that other shop's don't have experience, but everyone at HD had it when I moved down, and everyone got their on a different path, from different instructors, for different reasons. We're talking dive instructors who worked Live Aboards. Tech instructors who used to driving deep sea fishing boats. Cave divers. Trimix divers. Experienced gas blenders. Photographers. And everyone had been doing it for years. For someone like myself who was coming from a small pond. I landed in the right spot in the big pond.

After four years in Key Largo I have learned...TONS. Experience has taught me their is no single right way. I've become a very "Mission Oriented" diver, and way more conservative than I ever was when I first became an instructor. I have three different instructors over the last five technical courses. Dan Dawson, Jason Nunn, & Becky Kagan Schott have given me the tools to becoming a safe, prepared, and adventurous technical diver. Dan taught me the Hollis Prism2 but when Becky came down last year to teach me the Meg I wanted to full class because how could more knowledge hurt? Jason works for a university, and his dive planning & teaching is different from most instructors I know. Learning Trimix from him opened my eyes up to several different paths to proper planning.

I have been amazingly lucky to be part of dive shops that really help their people to progress and become better divers. Horizon Divers & The Dive Shop - Richmond made it possible for me to get where I am. Very few people can, will, or could spend the amount of money the past 8 years of my life would require to get to where I am. Without Dan Dawson & Jim McNeal allowing my to slide into class it wouldn't have been possible for me to get the experience I have needed to progress at the speed I have progressed.

Divers need time, knowledge, and experience to become masters at their craft. Adv Trimix CCR diving requires you to be a master at your craft. The path to getting those can be widely varied, but all three are required. As a technical diving instructor I find myself trying to lead students in the right directions for their path, rather than offering them certifications. Your goal is this, ok, based on your time, knowledge, and experience I think we should start here and move this direction. Training agencies aren't designed to do that. That is customer service. It may be that I miss teaching a class because someone wants a cert in 5 days. I would rather have them spend time practicing, and have them return ready to complete a course, rather than meeting minimum skills requirements and sending them on their way. I've learned, instructors help you know how to do things, but to become a master you have to practice.

 

[jonathan d iseson]

Perhaps this is more about adequate bail-out vs losing weight- ie. perhaps cutting corners since just a bounce dive?

 

[uwxplorer]

Oh, if it's rEvo you want, then @Capt Jim Wyatt and Kevin (both of Rainbow Reef in Key Largo) are great instructors in their own right.

Georgia also teaches the rEvo - so there are three rEvo instructors in Key Largo.

@NetDoc

Hmm. As of today, I can only see TWO rEvo recommended instructors on their website.
Anyone cares to comment?

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Georgia and I are listed on the IANTD website and approved as rEvo instructors.
Kevin is approved by TDI.