My own equipment not allowed for Open Water class?

[rx7diver]

That’s just bizarre that you have to pay for rental for the OW dives.

No, I think this is quite common. For my daughter's open water checkout, we needed to rent gear that her mom and I didn't supply: 5 mm long-sleeve jumpsuit, 5 mm short-sleeve step-in shorty, weights (because I didn't want my hard Pb weights to get mixed up with my LPD's).

ETA: And scuba cylinders--because my HP 80's are too unlike the Steel 72's and Luxfer Al 80's that her class used. (My call.)

Also, there was no requirement that we needed to rent from my LDS. We could have rented from anywhere. What's significant here is that the students were not allowed to use the university's gear for their checkout.

rx7diver

 

[Marie13]

No, I think this is quite common. For my daughter's open water checkout, we needed to rent gear that her mom and I didn't supply: 5 mm long-sleeve jumpsuit, 5 mm short-sleeve step-in shorty, weights (because I didn't want my hard Pb weights to get mixed up with my LPD's).

rx7diver

Shops in the Midwest I’m familiar with - it’s all included.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

like i said, its a risk, that admittedly might be small, but it is also completely unavoidable....so why take it?

if there was even a 0.1% chance of any of that happening....and you could avoid it....why wouldnt you?

Where did this 0.1% come from? Again, you are reaching. There is ALWAYS some sort of risk. There is risk in their own equipment as well. Doing the diligence of properly serviced gear is all that is needed. There's an ulterior motive here. That's it. For me, that's a red flag.

....i take it youve never actually met a lawyer....not the most honest bunch....they dont sue who is liable...they sue who they think they can get money out of....guilty or not

Actually, I have a number of lawyer friends who are all quite honest and have integrity. I also know of some lawyers who if I found bleeding to death in a ditch, I'd go look for branches to cover them up. Initially they will sue everyone that could be liable. As time goes on, some defendants could be dismissed, like what has happened in the fatality in Glacier National Park that David Concannon is the attorney for the plaintiff.

what makes open water so special?.....you are dealing with non-trained people who are your liability should something go wrong

I am liable for my actions, how I conduct my courses, whether it is open water or not. I have only two open water students as I only have two hands and will always be in control, but I will also ensure competence before embarking in open water. I am under no pressure from any shop to ram them through certification, so I reserve the right to terminate training if a student is uncooperative/has a bad attitude, is an accident (or worse) waiting to happen.

There is always risk when going into the water with untrained individuals. As well as poorly trained individual. It is my duty to mitigate those issues. If I do not believe I am able to address those issues, I opt not to teach.

also, i never said it applies to ALL instructors......but apparently you are familiar with all stipulations from every insurance carrier?

If you make a claim, you have to back it up. I've had insurance through V&B and DAN. What both address is whether I provide my own gear or not. If I do, then I need insurance for that as well.

We have to use both prudence and common sense.

 

[M-Cameron]

Where did this 0.1% come from? Again, you are reaching. There is ALWAYS some sort of risk. There is risk in their own equipment as well. Doing the diligence of properly serviced gear is all that is needed. There's an ulterior motive here. That's it. For me, that's a red flag.

Actually, I have a number of lawyer friends who are all quite honest and have integrity. I also know of some lawyers who if I found bleeding to death in a ditch, I'd go look for branches to cover them up. Initially they will sue everyone that could be liable. As time goes on, some defendants could be dismissed, like what has happened in the fatality in Glacier National Park that David Concannon is the attorney for the plaintiff.

I am liable for my actions, how I conduct my courses, whether it is open water or not. I have only two open water students as I only have two hands and will always be in control, but I will also ensure competence before embarking in open water. I am under no pressure from any shop to ram them through certification, so I reserve the right to terminate training if a student is uncooperative/has a bad attitude, is an accident (or worse) waiting to happen.

There is always risk when going into the water with untrained individuals. As well as poorly trained individual. It is my duty to mitigate those issues. If I do not believe I am able to address those issues, I opt not to teach.

If you make a claim, you have to back it up. I've had insurance through V&B and DAN. What both address is whether I provide my own gear or not. If I do, then I need insurance for that as well.

We have to use both prudence and common sense.

Dude it clear you aren't interested in having a good faith discussion...

Frankly I don't even know what your issue with me is...it's not my policy....I'm offering possible explanations for someone else's policy.

It's the instructors class, he can make any policy he wants....

Hell, it could be purely profit driven and he just wants to sell more rental gear..which is equally valid....his class his rules.

Call the instructor if you want a concrete answer.

But I'm not getting into a dick swinging contest with you.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Dude it clear you aren't interested in having a good faith discussion...

Frankly I don't even know what your issue with me is...it's not my policy....I'm offering possible explanations for someone else's policy.

It's the instructors class, he can make any policy he wants....

Hell, it could be purely profit driven and he just wants to sell more rental gear..which is equally valid....his class his rules.

Call the instructor if you want a concrete answer.

But I'm not getting into a dick swinging contest with you.

I was trying to have a reasonable discussion based on law, reality, and common sense. If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but this certainly wasn't a measuring contest. It doesn't make sense to pull ideas out of one's arse. That provides zero value to the OP.

A business can make whatever rules they want, and a customer can choose where they spend their money. That's nothing new.

I advise the OP to spend their money elsewhere. Their claim of liability is BS.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

If a shop or an instructor can't take 5 minutes to check out your gear and see that it's safe, they are not worth even considering. The insurance line is crap. They just don't want other students to see stuff they do not sell.
I never refused a student who wanted to use their own gear for open water once I had a chance to look it over and make sure it worked. If a student showed up with a double hose reg and horse collar BC I would have let them use it as long as there was a way to have an octo on it.
In my opinion, you having your own gear for open water is less wear and tear on mine or the shop's rental gear and it gives you a leg up on getting comfortable with the stuff you will actually be using.
There is little to no difference between PADI and SSI standards for what has to be covered.
However, PADI does allow, though doesn't really go overboard in supporting, independent instructors.
SSI does not allow independent instruction and their model is based on supporting the shop and selling you as much gear as possible.
The industry model is more and more geared towards supporting the business over the student in some ways. It's why I wrote my books and why there are separate entire chapters on choosing an instructor, shop, and courses.
Don't restrict yourself to PADI or SSI either. Look at the other agencies. SDI, NAUI, SEI, PDIC. As soon as someone tries to discourage you from using your own new, functioning, safe gear.. Run like hell.

 

[M-Cameron]

I advise the OP to spend their money elsewhere. Their claim of liability is BS.

I assume you've seen the insurance rider then?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I assume you've seen the insurance rider then?

Have you? Plenty of people get certified with their own purchased gear. There are not that many insurers in the US. I've used V&B and DAN which I have seen.

 

[M-Cameron]

Have you? Plenty of people get certified with their own purchased gear. There are not that many insurers in the US. I've used V&B and DAN which I have seen.

I'm not the one making catagorical claims about the veracity of the instructors claims....you are

You lambasted me for pulling "made up scenarios our of my arse"

So I assume you aren't doing that and have first hand knowledge of the dive op in question?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'm not the one making catagorical claims about the veracity of the instructors claims....you are

You lambasted me for pulling "made up scenarios our of my arse"

You are trying to support their nonsense.

So I assume you aren't doing that and have first hand knowledge of the dive op in question?

I do have some idea as to how things work, having worked in the industry a while, attended a legal seminar at DEMA, etc.. That doesn't mean I know everything, but I know enough to ask for evidence for outrageous claims like this one..

I'm not the only one saying it is BS either.

I think I'm done here.