my bouyancy sucks, going to take a private session, HELP!

[Frosty]

Look, I know I should have read the chapter. Yes this was a mistake. Can we move on from this? It's beside the point as the chapter won't teach you everything. Had I read the chapter before taking the class I still would have started this thread asking the same questions. I'd rather get some different answers/opinions from actual divers as oppose to reading a chapter. Besides, everything I learned from books came from PADI. Curious to know if other diving organizations teach anything differently from PADI in regard to buoyancy.

Hey look feel free to shoot me down here
Maybee I'm reading this wrong but what I'm hearing from you is a lack of understanding of the principles involved with weighting and boyancy at various depths. Sorry dude but IMO opinion its pretty important stuff thats right there in the books and are the basic knowledge building blocks you need.
Nope Im not all padi padi padi--Just saying there stuff you need to know or will soon need to know.

 

[supergaijin]

It's beside the point as the chapter won't teach you everything. Had I read the chapter before taking the class I still would have started this thread asking the same questions.

Sorry to keep banging on about this Mango... but... if you'd read the book before class it would have freed up the instructor to teach more than 'what is in the book'. A typical OW course runs for around 4 days. There are 'x' amount of contact hours in those 4 days. Those contact hours can be spent 'teaching what is already in the book' or teaching 'beyond the basics in the book'. The student has to learn it- not the instructor.

In water time is limited as well. When certain concepts are understood (through having read the book), then more time can be devoted to mastering buoyancy.

This does sound like a dog-pile and I do apologise for that. However for any potential students reading.... please.... RTFM and do your homework before class to get the most out of your time with your instructor.

Curious to know if other diving organizations teach anything differently from PADI in regard to buoyancy.

The concept of buoyancy does not change depending on agency. Individual instructors from various agencies may well (and should) teach beyond the typical 'fin-pivot' and 'buddha hover'. IMO there is not a lot of corrective teaching going on regarding these skills- the better the instructor the more they can teach for the individual and not just for the group.

 

[WhiteSands]

1)If I conduct a weight check before a dive with a full tank of air(AL80), i should add 4-5 pounds to whatever my proper weight is to compensate for my empty tank at the end of a dive.

2)once the weight check is complete, the way i plan on descending is at the surface hold my breath, deflate my bcd slight until my head sinks then slowly exhale. would that work? ive had problems where i descending too quickly.

3)over the course of my dive, im mostly going to be deflating my BCD to adjust buoyancy to compensate for my depleting tank.

4)take slow deep breaths

5)whats the best way to ascend? id love to be able to stay neutraly buoyant during a safety stop or a decompression stop at some point and just swim up to the proper depth and stay there without much effort. during my advanced class i saw guys dumping all of their AIR from thier BCD and using thier legs constantly to stay at around 15-20 in a vertical position.

1. At the end of a dive, find a shallow calm place to check your weighting. 2-3m of water is more than sufficient. If necessary, hold the purge button on your regulator and let out the air in your tank till you have 30-50bar left.

Let out all the air in your BCD carefully, then try to remain neutrally buoyant in the water while breathing normally (you should not have to keep your breathing at the bottom of your breath range).

If you can do that you are perfectly weighted. If you float, you need more weights (which I doubt). If you sink, you're overweighted. Remove one piece of weight and repeat till you are neutral. That is your perfect weighting for that setup.

2. Yes you can do that. However note that you should hold your breath in the middle of your breath range. And once you start to sink, do not hold your breath, but start breathing in the lower range of your breath range to continue descending.

I think you're descending too fast probably because you're way overweighted.

3. Once you've descended to the bottom, you will first inflate your BCD. Anytime you go deeper, you will inflate even more. When you get shallower, you will deflate some. As you use gas, you will need to deflate a little bit to compensate.

4. I won't take deep breaths. It messes with your buoyancy. Just breath normally (i.e. lightly) in the middle of your breath range. If you cannot breath in your mid-range and stay neutral, then your BCD needs air adjustments to bring it to neutral.

5. Your BCD should always have sufficient air so you are neutral in the water. Never so little that you need to kick to stay up, or so much that you need to kick to stay down. To ascend, start breathing in the upper half of your breath range.

Buoyancy adjustments in the water are all made with your breathing.

Just remember this rule:
1) Adjust your BCD so that when holding mid-breath, you neither float nor sink in the water.
2) Use only your breathing to adjust your vertical position in the water, nothing else.

Hope this helps.

 

[Colliam7]

OK, so we have had our fun beating up on you about reading the material in advance, and being prepared for the class. I will presume you got the point. On to your questions, and a few additional / related comments.

1)If I conduct a weight check before a dive with a full tank of air(AL80), i should add 4-5 pounds to whatever my proper weight is to compensate for my empty tank at the end of a dive.

Yes. That is a good start. Then, you do a more thorough weight check at the end of the dive to confirm that you have dialed in the proper weight. Keep in mind, that this is only a check of total weight, not 'proper weighting'. (See also comment 2, below.)

2)once the weight check is complete, the way i plan on descending is at the surface hold my breath, deflate my bcd slight until my head sinks then slowly exhale. would that work? ive had problems where i descending too quickly.

A LOT of newer divers descend too fast, probably because A LOT of newer divers are never told that they will need to start adding air back to their BCD almost as soon as their head submerges. It is very much like equalizing - you don't wait until the pain is excrutiating before you start equalizing, you start as soon as you descend below the surface, before you feel discomfort. I tell students (beginning in OW) that as soon as they feel their head submerge, they should 'snap' into a horizontal position, and be ready to begin adding small amounts of air to their BCD, as may be needed. Descending vertically, at a rapid - and increasing - rate, and landing in a standing position on the bottom is not acceptable. Waiting until you are 5 feet above the bottom to begin adding air, then blasting a lot of air into the BCD to avoid slamming into the bottom, so that you not only stop descending, but you actually start rising, is not acceptable.

3)over the course of my dive, im mostly going to be deflating my BCD to adjust buoyancy to compensate for my depleting tank.

Yes, IF you properly adjust for neutral buoyancy when you reach your target depth, and you stay within a reasonable range of that depth. Minor changes in depth necessitating slight changes in buoyancy, are managed best by your breathing.

4)take slow deep breaths

Yes.

5)whats the best way to ascend? . . . during my advanced class i saw guys dumping all of their AIR from thier BCD and using thier legs constantly to stay at around 15-20 in a vertical position.

That is NOT the best way (or even a reasonable way) to ascend. Neutral buoyancy is just that - neutral. I want to be neutrally buoyant at my safety stop, just like I want to be neutrally buoyant at 60 feet. Yes, I will start my ascent simply by finning up a few feet, because I should be neutral at depth and the few feet of ascent puts me in a slightly positive situation. I then control my ascent by dumping small amounts of air, as I ascend, to maintain control. If you saw other divers dumping all their BCD air at depth, then using their fins to maintain a safety stop, AND doing that safety stop in a vertical position, I have to wonder from where they received instruction to do that. At your safety stop, do just that - STOP. Maintain neutral buoyancy, remain in a horizontal position. When you finish the stop, then go vertical, look up, and ascend the final 15 feet.

The additional comments:

1. Many newer divers do not appreciate the lag time between adding air to their BCD and a perceptible change in buoyancy. Consequently, they add air, then when they fail to sense an immediate change, end up adding MORE air, which ends up being too much, and they then have to dump air to avoid ascending, after which they have to add air, etc. It is a vicious cycle. A good instructor will also teach you to be patient in this regard.

2. Proper weighting is more than total weighting, it is also proper weight distribution. Unfortunately, weight distribution and TRIM are under-served, both in some manuals and by some instructors.

the book doesn't go into TRIM very much if at all. During the class it was not mentioned, even though its important to understand.

All too often what happens is that a student, supposedly properly weighted, ends up with much / all of their lead on their waist on in weight pockets at the front and bottom of their weight-integrated BCD, which pulls their legs down a bit. They swim through the water at a 45 degree (foot low) angle, thinking that is normal. At that angle, a portion of the thrust vector from their fin strokes is directed downward. They adjust their BCD inflation to maintain constant depth while swimming. They stop to look at something, and start to sink (because the downward thrust stops), so they add air to their BCD. Then they resume finning, again with their body at a 45 degree angle, and they start to ascend, so they dump air from their BCD. After the dive they are frustrated and may even comment that their 'buoyancy sucks'.

3. Having students prepared for class is a shared responsibility, between instructor and student. I cannot reasonably expect students to be mind readers.

I was handed the PADI 'adventures in diving' manual which included a chapter on buoyancy but I didnt get a chance to read it before the class as the instructor didnt communicate to me I needed to read it along with some other chapters.

Although I had to chuckle at mala's comment (about chuckling at your comment), I will add a serious remark here. Unfortunately, I have seen the same situation in some AOW classes taught in our area. A diver signs up for AOW through the LDS, buys the 'crew pack', which includes the 'Adventures in Diving' manual - with chapters on virtually every adventure dive - and is told to show up at a certain time and place, on a certain date, for orientation, and all will be explained. Doesn't work too well. The instructor is better served if s/he communicates with the student(s) in advance (I use email), and tells them, 'We will do these five dives for AOW. Please read these specific chapters and these specific pages in the manual BEFORE the first session, please complete the Knowledge Reviews for the five chapters BEFORE the first session.' It is a partnership. Yes, I expect (and require) students to come prepared, and I don't have a lot of patience for the 'I didn't have time' excuse. But, they have a right to expect me to tell them what they need to do to prepare. I also assign three YouTube videos - on buoyancy and trim - that they must watch before the class. And, I provide a written handout on buoyancy and trim (for PPB), and another on compass navigation (for Underwater Navigation) that they also must read before the first session. If that doesn't work for them, I understand. They can schedule a make-up Orientation / Academic session (for an additional fee), or there are other instructors in the shop and they can move to the next month's AOW class. On the other hand, IF I come to class unprepared, they have every reason to demand a fee reduction, or that I reschedule the session at a time convenient for them.

 

[mangoconchile]

thanks you guys for all the help. i took all of the information here and created a step by step document for what i should do for best bouyancy practices. ill be sure to go over this with the instructor.

 

[TSandM]

On the topic of slow, deep breaths . . . I spent an hour in the pool last night with a fairly new diver who wanted to get his new gear dialed in. One of the first things I noticed was that this six foot guy was taking HUGE breaths in and out -- doing the "fin pivot" exercise, he was going up and down almost three feet! After I talked to him a bit, it turned out he was using yoga breathing, thinking that was what would work. When he began to cycle a reasonable volume, a little slower and only a little deeper than he would usually breathe, he realized his buoyancy was MUCH more stable.

 

[fnfalman]

Come diving with me and I'll show you all these basic techniques for free.

During my open water class I admittedly breezed thru alot of the online material due to me being short on time. I read the parts that interested me(equipment, decompression, beach vs boat dives) and skipped some other stuff(buoyancy). my buoyancy sucked hard during my OW course as the instructor never really conducted a proper weight check as most of our time was spent on our knees going over hand signals, etc....we did do a fin pivot and oral inflation but at the time i didnt know what the benefit of it was going to be(now i know). contacted my LDS and one of the instructors offered me a private session(s) at $75 a tank OR i could do my advanced OW class which included peak performance buoyancy for $200(which included 2 beach dives and 3 boat dives). not wanting to turn down a good deal I decided to take the class. I was handed the PADI 'adventures in diving' manual which included a chapter on buoyancy but I didnt get a chance to read it before the class as the instructor didnt communicate to me I needed to read it along with some other chapters. so again I went out to dive again without reading the proper material(didn't know I had to read it). I did pretty decent but definately need some help with buoyancy and navigation.


before i get my session Ive done alot of reading and have a good understanding of what affects it during a dive. here is what ive learned over the past few days. i want to make sure this is accurate or if anyone else has any advice or any crucial information im missing. i want to be as prepared as possible so i dont waste my money. during the dive i will be using a back inflated BCD, a 7mm wet suit diving in salt water. i used a weight check calulator which determine my weight to be around 24lbs but i will check it during the dive.


1)If I conduct a weight check before a dive with a full tank of air(AL80), i should add 4-5 pounds to whatever my proper weight is to compensate for my empty tank at the end of a dive.

2)once the weight check is complete, the way i plan on descending is at the surface hold my breath, deflate my bcd slight until my head sinks then slowly exhale. would that work? ive had problems where i descending too quickly.

3)over the course of my dive, im mostly going to be deflating my BCD to adjust buoyancy to compensate for my depleting tank.

4)take slow deep breaths

5)whats the best way to ascend? id love to be able to stay neutraly buoyant during a safety stop or a decompression stop at some point and just swim up to the proper depth and stay there without much effort. during my advanced class i saw guys dumping all of their AIR from thier BCD and using thier legs constantly to stay at around 15-20 in a vertical position.

 

[MrChen]

he gave me a book but didn't tell me I had to read it.....

made me chuckle.

keep diving dude.

I'm concerned that this isn't a safe diver. You can't pick and choose what to study for your class. If the OP is going to take shortcuts in reading chapters, what other shortcuts or things will be dismissed? The OP is 2/2 for not reading the book and next is Nitrox. Are we going to skip analyzing next because we didn't read that chapter? Buoyancy is important but so is knowing how to dive and understanding all the dangers. When I did my AOW, I read additional chapters on content we weren't diving on.

Please read your books even though you've already done the classes. Answer all the questions. You shouldn't have been allowed to finish your course without completing all that material.

Just be safe, read the darn material, and practice your butt off.

 

[Shasta_man]

Glad you are here asking questions but you're still just looking for the cheat sheet which ain't good in a life threatening sport like this.

Many of the responses here are meant for someone who has the basic skills but needs some help. Judging by your message, you aren't at basic skills. We know this because VERY few people come here after their OW and say first, that they aren't clear about how to just get under the water surface, or then that they are going to hold their breath and just try to duck under. It's one thing to have these skills in the pool but in the unforgiving ocean, it could cost you your life or worse someone else who tries to save you, or an even less experienced buddy who thought the talker next to him was experienced.

These responses aren't a beatdown, they are the truth that you brought on yourself by blowing off your basic studies not just for one important certification but two. And who the hell certified you?! How could you be certified without knowing how to descend, let alone safely?! Your message indicate you have no idea how it works. The book explains the basis of how things work so you can understand and apply it to any situation, not just use a set cheat sheet. I guarantee you will encounter situations, likely in your first dive, not on the cheat sheet. So lack of knowledge is no crime but trying to get around the learning part will be.

My suggestion is don't try to stack more skills on top of knowledge you aren't absolutely clear about, because you undoubtably skimmed some other important stuff. Experience is much more important than AOW. AOW is to teach you new skills, not go over the the OW's again. Go back and find a instructor to go over all of the skills in OW and spend some pool time with you to teach you the right way to do it, and answer your questions, then go on an ocean dive with them too. Just you and the instructor. Have him quiz you on all the skills and specifically train you on any you don't do flawlessly. No exceptions. Then you will be reasonably trained and safe for yourself and others. Then just do some diving with experienced buddies (that means AOW at least). Get in 20 dives and then worry about going back for AOW.

You certainly gave us a chuckle with comments like "I read what I was interested in" and (paraphrasing) "what was in the book was nothing, the real info like trim was left out".

 

[TSandM]

It's not the OP's fault if he was certified without having met standards. When I finished my OW class, I had never successfully executed a descent without hanging onto something -- either a line, or my instructor. I got certified anyway. I didn't know the standards required that I do a descent without tactile reference, and I didn't know it was dangerous not to be able to do it, because honestly, I just hadn't given such things a great deal of thought. I had confidence that my instructor felt that my performance was good enough for an entry level diver and probably figured things would improve with time.

He's here asking questions and asking for advice (and apparently appreciating it), so rather than beat on him some more, why don't we all just keep helping? Maybe the textbooks aren't as appealing or accessible to him as the little tips on line. Who knows? At least he's looking to improve, and we should not discourage that.