My Bonne Terre Experience

[Kevin Carlisle]

Its very poor business when the Staff calls someone and basically says you flamed us over your lack of experience and then LIES about the outcome of the call. Kinda shocking to tell the truth.

An overhead is an overhead and the RULES for diving them are there for reasons, proven reasons at that. There is no exception there and taking people there and not telling them about it is WRONG!! When you cant directly get to the surface you are in an overhead environment. Doesnt matter if its a ten foot swim through, it should be in the dive briefing and was not.

Her original post did not flame the mine, just that she didnt enjoy her experience. This isnt the first time this story has come out of there and it wont be the last. From 5 or 6 people I know that went there who are experienced they said it was ok for them, however they all saw weak guide skills and worry about the poor dive briefings as well as guide qualifications. Basically said some guides were good while others were there just to log dives. Probably what happens when you use free labor for guides, you get some that are excellent and some that arent.

Everyone that goes there is not going to enjoy it and the mine personnell will not always have good days. Instead of criticizing lack of experience maybe they should have asked, what did we do wrong or could have done better to make it more comfortable for lesser experienced divers. Or just asked from her view point was there anything that could have made it better without pointing fingers that it was her groups fault.

 

[The Chairman]

Its very poor business when the Staff calls someone and basically says you flamed us over your lack of experience and then LIES about the outcome of the call. Kinda shocking to tell the truth.

An overhead is an overhead and the RULES for diving them are there for reasons, proven reasons at that. There is no exception there and taking people there and not telling them about it is WRONG!! When you cant directly get to the surface you are in an overhead environment. Doesnt matter if its a ten foot swim through, it should be in the dive briefing and was not.

Her original post did not flame the mine, just that she didnt enjoy her experience. This isnt the first time this story has come out of there and it wont be the last. From 5 or 6 people I know that went there who are experienced they said it was ok for them, however they all saw weak guide skills and worry about the poor dive briefings as well as guide qualifications. Basically said some guides were good while others were there just to log dives. Probably what happens when you use free labor for guides, you get some that are excellent and some that arent.

Everyone that goes there is not going to enjoy it and the mine personnell will not always have good days. Instead of criticizing lack of experience maybe they should have asked, what did we do wrong or could have done better to make it more comfortable for lesser experienced divers. Or just asked from her view point was there anything that could have made it better without pointing fingers that it was her groups fault.

I have to ask, have you dove there?

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I have to ask, have you dove there?

I dont need to go there Pete. Quit trying to defend a place because of advertising dollars.

 

[The Chairman]

I dont need to go there Pete.

I take that as a "no". I respectfully suggest that you don't know what you're talking about. You are drawing conclusions based on second hand information and calling someone a liar without hearing both sides of the story.

Quit trying to defend a place because of advertising dollars.

That's a cheap shot Kevin based on yet another fallacious assumption. To be clear, they have never advertised here on ScubaBoard and I have receive no monetary compensation from them at any time. It's a cheap shot used to deflect the truth: you have no first hand knowledge of the mine and like me, you have no first hand knowledge of the conversations that took place.

I see this as a fight between my friends and I am trying to provide some clarity to what I HAVE seen and HAVE experienced. Unlike yourself, I am not going to call anyone a liar without ample and first hand evidence to that effect.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I think it speaks volumes that OBVIOUSLY Bonne Terre has read this thread and they felt the need to contact the OP. Yet they have not defended themselves on the board. I have never dove there but am not so naive as to not believe that such things (as detailed by a couple posters in this thread) could happen. I am sure that Pete and others have had the wonderful experiences they have with no hint of bad. It does not make either a liar. I am sure both are telling the truth. But the fact that BT has chosen to remain silent and has chosen to not provide "their version of the truth" tells me that there is probably more truth to the OP's stary than they (BT) would like.

Just my $0.02

 

[fire_diver]

I have to ask, have you dove there?

Pete, you need to step back and take a deep breath. You have already stated that some of the workers are YOUR FRIENDS. I think you are getting personally involved in something that is much more of a philisophical discusion.

There are specific rules for an overhead environment diving, it doesn't matter if you have dove THAT specific overhead or not. I have never dove in Floridas caves, but the same rules apply as the caves I learned in.

I also agree that your statement that trained cave divers aren't equiped with the skills to dive BT is pretty weak.

 

[The Chairman]

I think it speaks volumes that OBVIOUSLY Bonne Terre has read this thread and they felt the need to contact the OP. Yet they have not defended themselves on the board.

But they did respond. Personally, I think that their understated response was in their best interest.

• They didn't flame either of the posters in their response. They seem to be taking their lumps without much grumbling.
• They did indicate that they had a private discussion with one of them and that they initiated that discussion.
• This indicates to me that they are at least trying to conduct business in an ethical manner which is consistent with my experiences with them.
• Are they perfect? Absolutely not.
• Is the diving there unsafe? Not in my opinion. But then, I like diving in dark and murky places and very little freaks me out.

Do I think that Jeni is wrong? Nope. She gave us her impression of the dive. I gave a different impression based on my experiences. Could Bonne Terre do better? Obviously, and I think giving their guides and safety divers colorful hoods/hats would be a smart move for them. Heck, they could even use a yellow miner's (construction) hat with LEDs on them to give it a campy yet distinct effect.

 

[Cave Diver]

I see this as a fight between my friends and I am trying to provide some clarity to what I HAVE seen and HAVE experienced. Unlike yourself, I am not going to call anyone a liar without ample and first hand evidence to that effect.

I don't see it as a fight at all. I see it as a trip report where someone posted their opinions and experiences. The dive op wasn't slammed and Jen clearly posted her experience level and how she felt about the experience. She admitted her own mistakes and pointed out some of the shortfalls of the experience from a new diver's perspective.

At her request, I reviewed the thread shortly after it was posted. She contacted me because she was HIGHLY upset over the phone call and wanted an objective opinion on it. I don't know exactly what was said over the phone, but I got the impression she was asked to pull the report. I saw nothing in it to warrant that. She listed the good and the bad of the experience and recommended ways they could improve on the bad.

If this is a fight, it's only because someone other than the OP is making it one.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, you need to step back and take a deep breath. You have already stated that some of the workers are YOUR FRIENDS. I think you are getting personally involved in something that is much more of a philisophical discusion.

Of course I am personally involved in this discussion. I have not asked someone else to post here for me. I pointed out my obvious bias from the outset, lest people like Kevin come in and accuse me of trying to pull a quick one. Well, he still had to pull a cheap shot based on his wrong assumption.

There are specific rules for an overhead environment diving, it doesn't matter if you have dove THAT specific overhead or not. I have never dove in Floridas caves, but the same rules apply as the caves I learned in.

I agree. If you ever dove Bonne Terre, it would become quickly apparent that this is an underground LAKE. As was pointed out earlier, the actual ceiling for this lake is quite a distance overhead. I have not been on all the tours, but they are careful about taking you down any passage that does not have a direct and continuous access to the surface. You might as well say that swimming under a boat is diving in an overhead environment. It's my personal opinion that they do a great job. But then, I have been there unlike the experts who have not.

Of course, if you have never dove there you can't tell that. Even if you have dove there, it's easy to let the darkness and a short passage or two make you feel like you were in an overhead environ. This is not even remotely close to cavern or cave diving.

I also agree that your statement that trained cave divers aren't equiped with the skills to dive BT is pretty weak.

Which is why they won't let them dive there. Hubris tells the cave diver that they are "all that" when it comes to almost any environment. The guides are there to keep people from inadvertently entering into overhead environs and getting themselves in trouble. Their safety record speaks volumes for their procedures.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

Of course I am personally involved in this discussion. I have not asked someone else to post here for me. I pointed out my obvious bias from the outset, lest people like Kevin come in and accuse me of trying to pull a quick one. Well, he still had to pull a cheap shot based on his wrong assumption. I agree. If you ever dove Bonne Terre, it would become quickly apparent that this is an underground LAKE. As was pointed out earlier, the actual ceiling for this lake is quite a distance overhead. I have not been on all the tours, but they are careful about taking you down any passage that does not have a direct and continuous access to the surface. You might as well say that swimming under a boat is diving in an overhead environment. It's my personal opinion that they do a great job. But then, I have been there unlike the experts who have not.

Of course, if you have never dove there you can't tell that. Even if you have dove there, it's easy to let the darkness and a short passage or two make you feel like you were in an overhead environ. This is not even remotely close to cavern or cave diving. Which is why they won't let them dive there. Hubris tells the cave diver that they are "all that" when it comes to almost any environment. The guides are there to keep people from inadvertently entering into overhead environs and getting themselves in trouble. Their safety record speaks volumes for their procedures.

So you are ok with someone calling your customer and telling them your lack of experience is whats wrong, that it wasnt us?

Lack of a proper dive briefing is also a concern and i dont have to dive the place to know that.

I do agree with you on cave diving there. Being a mine I would want to know all the man made hazards there first.

We can argue the overhead part all day, I stand by what every agency teaches on that subject. They should have been told they would be going through a swim through.