My AN/DP/Helitrox course

[Capt Bob]

Well, Marie13, I'm not sure how to respond to this without it coming out as bashing, but I will try. It seems again, you're intentionally starting things, and not telling full stories. Leading others to bash us, and encourage the fire brigade.

I'm not going to get into details and everything here, I don't want to hurt you as you seem to want to do to us, regardless of the hours/years of help we put in, in class, in the pool, in the store. All to help grow your passion, even though your dive skills don't follow that same growth. My crew has thrown out their backs hauling you onto the boat. It's different when someone needs a "hand". When I have to have them literally drag you up the ladder, it's not safe. If it happened once, OK....when it happens ALL SUMMER, every trip, every year, and you scream and yell at the crew...NO. How you are diving, is unsafe, your not currently able to do what we expect a normal diver to do diving with us. You can't lift a bottle to the crew from the water, let's be honest. I can't even imagine what would happen if you tried to clip one off on the line. I won't get into all of the other things you can't do, as I'm not here to bash you. I just don't know how to rebutt what you're leading others to think of us, if I can't mention all of these things I should say. It's not the place here, and I wouldn't do that to someone, but you know all of them, it's been spelled out for you from your Instructor. With everything you've insinuated, and allowing others to say about us, my tongue really hurts from how hard I'm biting it right now.

We gave you strict rules to dive off our boat, specific to you, based on you as a diver and the progressions you have had over the years. That was only with a single tank under 60ft, for now, for your safety. You now want to go back to sidemount, which didn't work for you previously. Nothing has anything to do with your age, or anything other than you're trying to do more, than your skill allows, and we won't be apart of it anymore, you're acting unsafe. I'm done getting bashed by you publicly, while you're in the store everyday and we try to work with you, and help you. You either like us or you don't. I appreciate that you have other charters to dive off, and highly encourage that going forward.

This sport isn't for the weak, and unfortunately, not everyone is at the same level, and not everyone can progress. I won't allow someone to dive beyond their ability, their skill, their gear tolerance, and get themselves or my crew hurt or killed. There are enough things in this sport trying to kill us already.

I've tried my best to not bash you Marie13, yet still be able to tell another side of this story. Unfortunately, I can't combat everything everyone says, as all I would do is paint the real story, and destroy your Image. At the same time, I'm done watching this every few months where you twists and exaggerate truths to rile people up. I'm sorry to anyone that doesn't agree with me putting this here, but there is no way to softly tell these parts of the stories. I've done the best I can to shed light on our side here, and have no clue how else to do it. I didn't bring this conversation here, all I can do is tell the full truth, while not bashing someone from every detail, every instance, every moment over the years.

Well said!

 

[ToneNQ]

Big thanks @Dive Right In Scuba for unveiling the truth about @Marie13 . Few months ago I asked her what is wrong that she is not capable to complete her courses. It seems I was right by thinking that she just does not have capabilities (physical, mental, technical) to do that.

...........snip................

However, I have to admit that she is very good in tongue diving by writing million posts and and pretending by being a real tech diver

Actually it would seem your 'opinion' has been building for some time, and you finally saw enough to decide you were right. The fact you feel the need to thank Marie's LDS for "unveiling the truth about Marie13", when it affects you how? Even the dive shop appears to hold no malice, they've just decided to draw a line in the sand.

There are many people in this thread that are personally and professionally involved, they have an opinion and they have a right to feel aggrieved, or offended, or vindicated or whatever is appropriate to them. You have a belief and a rather vitriolic one, considering your proximity to this.

 

[tmassey]

Very well said. When I did my tech training, I had to carry my full equipment including 3 tanks and was not moaning. At that time I was thinking that tech training is definitely not for a weak. In the beginning of training me and others were told that not everybody get certified and we are paying for training and not certification, which has to be earned. If I would not be able to get into the boat by myself I think that my training would be ended the first day. Tech diving involves much higher risks and you need to help your buddy in case there is a need. I would never dive with a person who always needs help, is not capable to take care of herself (such as @Marie13). I am just wondering why her instructor spends so much time when it is obvious that she will never be a real tech diver. Also, miracle could happen and she might get AN/DP cert as not all instructors apply the same strict standards, however, in real life I doubt that she will find buddies who would want to do tech dives with her.

Have you ever dove with her? Have you ever seen her in the water?

I have. I’ve recently done a few quarry dives with her specifically to help with basic skills. I saw where she was two months ago and where she was a few weeks ago. There was a noticeable difference. She is capable of learning and improving. She *is* learning and improving.

Like many getting into technical dive, she’s got hundreds of dives learning a certain way of diving, a way that doesn’t translate to technical diving. I keep telling her it’s going to take a few dozen dives at least to get proficient without those recreational habits. How do I know? That’s what happened to me, too.

While diving with her, I intentionally did not baby her. I occasionally moved a deco bottle down to the water for her when I took my own bottle: something I’ve done without asking for many a diver. And I’ve helped her get strapped into her rig — something I needed as a new tech diver, too, and I still need today on occasion. Drysuit glove rings and harnesses don’t sometimes mix.

Like DRIS, I’m not going to pass judgement on her diving in a public forum — or to anyone but her, for that matter. Her readiness for her class is between her and her instructor: not me, and not a bunch of SB readers. How she and DRIS want to handle her participation on a boat is up to them, not us.

I’ve dove in caves with a one-footed diver. If he can do that, Marie13 can do a wimpy 150’ dive to a shipwreck. It will take further work and effort for her both in and out of the water. She may choose not to. But there’s nothing inherently limiting her. Why should her instructor tell her to quit?

Her instructor *does* have to tell her what he will require of her. She may choose not to put the effort into it — and with no judgement. This is a *hobby*. It may not be worth it.

But to tell her she can’t? She *never* will? And for people she’s never dove with to say that? Come on.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Have you ever dove with her? Have you ever seen her in the water?

Like DRIS, I’m not going to pass judgement on her diving in a public forum — or to anyone but her, for that matter. Her readiness for her class is between her and her instructor: not me, and not a bunch of SB readers. How she and DRIS want to handle her participation on a boat is up to them, not us.

If he can do that, Marie13 can do a wimpy 150’ dive to a shipwreck. It will take further work and effort for her both in and out of the water. She may choose not to. But there’s nothing inherently limiting her. Why should her instructor tell her to quit?

Her instructor *does* have to tell her what he will require of her. She may choose not to put the effort into it — and with no judgement. This is a *hobby*. It may not be worth it.

.

150' dive, isn't a wimpy dive. I'm sorry, but that's not nearly the case,and I think it's reckless to take a dive like that for granted or even think she is capable of that kind of dive!

Also, her Instructor never told her to quit, I'm not sure where that comes from. He did limit her, after a near death experience, to 60ft ceiling and a single tank...while also outlining specifics of why, and things to work on, and in what order to expand. A few days later she informed the instructor she did a dive to 85ft, completely disregarding his recommendations for her and her buddies safety. Everything, and everyone helping has gone above and beyond to help someone with extreme passion, and we did not want to give up, despite the lack of skills due to that passion. Unfortunately, and it's something I never thought I would agree with, some people just can't progress past a certain point based on their physical and mental abilities. There is much more than 1 event, or even a handful here, and many instructors, crew, DM's have all been involved and giving everything they can to fuel a passion, hoping skills would advance.

 

[tmassey]

150' dive, isn't a wimpy dive. I'm sorry, but that's not nearly the case,and I think it's reckless to take a dive like that for granted or even think she is capable of that kind of dive!

Also, her Instructor never told her to quit, I'm not sure where that comes from. He did limit her, after a near death experience, to 60ft ceiling and a single tank...while also outlining specifics of why, and things to work on, and in what order to expand. A few days later she informed the instructor she did a dive to 85ft, completely disregarding his recommendations for her and her buddies safety. Everything, and everyone helping has gone above and beyond to help someone with extreme passion, and we did not want to give up, despite the lack of skills due to that passion. Unfortunately, and it's something I never thought I would agree with, some people just can't progress past a certain point based on their physical and mental abilities. There is much more than 1 event, or even a handful here, and many instructors, crew, DM's have all been involved and giving everything they can to fuel a passion, hoping skills would advance.

I wasn’t really commenting on your stance or reaction. I wouldn’t even be writing this reply if you hadn’t quoted me.

Everyone has the right to choose who they dive with. And as a service provider, you have the right to decide if you can safely and effectively provide service for a customer. I don’t object to that.

Nor am I saying that I think Marie13 should be able to do that dive. Nor not do that dive. Even if I did, my judgment would be worth exactly what you paid for it.

The only thing I objected to was the piling on by people who have literally never seen her dive. You have seen her dive. You have passed your judgment. You have that right.

Philosophically, I’m not willing to pass judgment that someone would never be able to do something. if you are, that’s fine too. It’s easy for me to say that: I have no responsibility. You do have responsibility and have to protect yourself. No problem from me.

As for calling it a wimpy dive: yes, I was understating it, and I’ll take being called out for it. Having said that, people do such dives on a single tank (on air!) with no accelerated deco all the time. I would never do that. I suspect you would never do that, nor allow it to be done under something you control. But It’s not exactly an unreasonable target for even a recreational diver to set for themselves. (that is, set it as a goal to do it correctly!)

however, they still have to put in the work.

 

[lowviz]

Works pretty well. I have a line very similar for using SM off SoCal boats. I added multiple brass rings where the knots are so I could hang multiple bottles at different depths. Also made it easier to pull the heavy beasts up.

Nice!

This highlights why I never got into tech diving. All the extra risk/burden/effort just doesn't seem to be offset by the rewards where I live and dive. I like coming back from a dive pleasantly tired rather than exhausted...

 

[tridacna]

Nice!

This highlights why I never got into tech diving. All the extra risk/burden/effort just doesn't seem to be offset by the rewards where I live and dive. I like coming back from a dive pleasantly tired rather than exhausted...

Nothing like dragging five tanks up onto a heaving deck in NJ - all while wondering why you are doing this to see a pile of wreck rubble in forty something degree water with 4 ft of vis. No thanks. Did that a few times too many. My back, knees and shoulders are better off too.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

Nice!

This highlights why I never got into tech diving. All the extra risk/burden/effort just doesn't seem to be offset by the rewards where I live and dive. I like coming back from a dive pleasantly tired rather than exhausted...

... and why some of us who are tech trained decide to hang up the doubles and stages. It is a risk/benefit decision you need to make before every single dive. For me ... give me a 2.5 hr dive at Blue Heron Bridge all day every day! YMMV.

 

[lowviz]

Policy for amount of assistance given to divers has nothing to do with CV-19. I was told they don’t want crew hurt with heavy lifting.

Thus my post on calling the crew 'princesses'.

I'm not going to get into details and everything here, I don't want to hurt you as you seem to want to do to us, regardless of the hours/years of help we put in, in class, in the pool, in the store. All to help grow your passion, even though your dive skills don't follow that same growth. My crew has thrown out their backs hauling you onto the boat. It's different when someone needs a "hand". When I have to have them literally drag you up the ladder, it's not safe. If it happened once, OK....when it happens ALL SUMMER, every trip, every year, and you scream and yell at the crew...NO.

I knew that there were issues, yours was a helpful post. For all of us.

She knows, consciously or subconsciously, that this is a community that is wonderful for helping other divers in almost any way. IMHO, she was wired 'driven' rather than just 'highly motivated'. Dangerous. Noticing that in her posts years ago caused me concern. So, I approached her to do a course with @abnfrog and I. If there is an instructor who can 'read' you and speak in a voice that YOU can hear... You don't just take the course(s). You live on-site and become a temporary part of the fam.

They clicked, she got more than one 'buckle-up buttercup' earful and took it rather well. I was present. It appears to me that all of her frustrations get externalized very quickly. I too saw tremendous progress in her frog kicks (Steve has a great way of teaching that) and progress in her attitude as soon as she saw real progress in herself.

I publicly retract my ill-considered 'princesses' post. Don't give up on her just yet...

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Don't give up on her just yet...

While I appreciate your response, there is no "just yet" after 4 years . Some people just don't possess what's needed to do technical dives. Some people should just be limited to a single tank, and 45-60ft depth based on all of their abilities and to keep them safe. It's our job to do that, and give people the hard truth. That hard truth is hard for everyone, especially those tasked with relaying that message.