Municipal Divers? Not here....

[DOkie]

Had an interesting weekend. Long story short. A gentleman in this area decided to commit suicide by jumping off of the breakwall and into 37 degree water at 2:30 in the morning. (Left a note, cameras seen him headed that way, etc. etc. etc.)

My problem began when the LDS contacted us and asked us to do some diving to look for this gentleman. Didn't think much of it, and three of us took a ride to go diving. Got to the marina and the gentlemans brother was there. He was extremely distraught as he'd been there every day for two weeks looking for his brother. He didn't know who to contact for divers, etc. etc. etc. Told him we would do what we could and entered the water. Visability was pretty good (3-4 feet), no weeds, and found the body within 15 minutes of diving. Came back up and called the police.

Here's where the fun begins. Within minutes, numerous cops show up, stringing tape, blocking off roads, notepads out, radios going, blah blah blah. It didn't take long to become absolutely disgusted with the situation. Evidently, the Sheriff's Department dive team claimed that they had Side Scan Sonared the area but the weeds were causing problems in viewing (again, did I say there were NO weeds?). When I asked why they didn't go in to look for the body, I was told that the water temp and conditions were not favorable for diving (???) I was also told that they were just waiting for the body to float up sooner or later. Wish I could say that this was the end of it (because I was fuming by now) but I had to listen to the officers tell the family that showed up "you're going to want to take off because it's going to be at least 4-5 hours before we get this guy out". From then on it went like this... Who has a body bag, don't you have a body bag, where do we find a body bag.... Who's going to go in and get him out, we can't go in and get him out, you can't go in and get him out, how do we get him out.... FINALLY the Sheriff's Department Dive Team shows up and their worry is "is he bouyed?" (Yes he was and we even tied him to the breakwater wall so he would get caught in the surge again). "So all we have to do is follow the line down"?

Now that I've vented... I know that there are good dive teams out there so please don't get me wrong, but if a dive team is this incapable, why don't they allow local divers to join and help them out? I've been told it's because of a federal funding issue. I mean they all have really pretty suits, but they take 45 minutes to get them on! What if there was a child that fell through the ice? They KNEW he was there! They KNEW where he jumped off! Why did they not go in and get him? My only thought is that 1. They didn't want to dive in the conditions or 2. He wasn't important enough to go in for. Either way....

To top it all off, the newspaper praised the dive team for their weeks of searching for this gentleman! Unbelievable! I am not by any means looking for praise, I'm just hoping someone more familiar with these situations can shed some light on this for me.

 

[diver 85]

It's called government red tape--hard to cut thru-----and----a good chance these people(S.D. dive team) could not be fired no matter how incompetent they really are........bunch of deadheads it sounds like to me......

 

[k ellis]

Well to be honest the reason for not letting local divers join in is simply because it is a crime scene and it must be pereserved. Yes they may know he was "somewhere" within a 50 - 100 foot circle but with the conditions you mentioned such as surge and so forth it may have been possible to sweep divers as well as the body. I am not saying this is the case and I too am a little shocked at the issue you stated.

But what I can say is when it comes to finding a body every little detail counts. Such as was he bound? Did he have microscopic hairs still in any adhesive bindings? The way he was laying in the water. What you got to remember is yes all the surface evidence points to suicide but was it all someone forcing him to commit suicide like threats on his family etc. This is the reason most agencies will not allow non law enforcement officials to be involved.

 

[NudeDiver]

I've never understood why they look for bodies anyway.

 

[Stoo]

In my very limited experience with government divers and the like, it's all about procedures and rules. In your case, there really wasn't any hurry (the guy was dead, located and anchored) so technically there wasn't any rush. Lots of time to do things by the book, and the book probably said not to do anything in a hurry~

Up here, in the national marine park around Tobermory, our wrecks are marked. Each spring, the moorings need to be put back out. The park divers, by law, are not allowed to dive below 100' (it's a provincial regulation), so for the past decade or so, I have gone out with a buddy, located the wreck on sonar, anchored beside it, dove down and attached a lift bag to the line and then left a plastic bottle on it for the park boys to use.

This year, they decided that this was too risky (liability-wise, for them) to use us as volunteer divers. Instead, they hired a commercial diver, with surface supplied gear. As it turns out, the gear was tied up elsewhere, so this guy asked me to... wait for it... pop out and mark the place with a jug... which I happily did with another friend.

In a similar example, last summer, a small private island (within the border of the Park) somehow caught on fire (just a small brush fire). I reported it by radio to the Park. When we passed back past the island an hour later, the fire was still burning while a park boat stood by, doing nothing. We came along and asked why they weren't squirting a little water on the fire from the nice pump they had on board. Well, because it was a private island, the fire needed to be put out by the municipal fire department. When I pointed out that the volunteer fire brigade didn't actually have a boat and therefore no way to get to the island, the Warden said he knew that. He was waiting for the Park staff to get hold of the owner, to ask his permission to go on his island to stop it from burning to the ground. As far as I know, the fire just burned out before they tracked the guy down!

The depths of government ineptitude knows no limit!

 

[k ellis]

It may have to do with closure for the families to trully know where their loved ones are burried.

 

[rscalzo]

Exactly how much training did the divers have in ther handling of a crime scene a nd di they follow established procedures required in the dealing with a homicide? That's why the body is justy not dragged out. Once the scene is tainted, the evidence becomes useless for the most part. Anyone who is going to be involved in these incidents should be required to attend the courses available dealing with exactly that...underwater crime scenes.

Divers could have just dragged everything to the surface in the TWA800 incident. Instead they took weeks to document every piece of evidence, regardless of how small.

It may look like a suicide, but years down the road in court when the family is trying to possibly deal with civil motions, the lack of a proper investigation can make you look more than foolish.

 

[k ellis]

Exactly how much training did the divers have in ther handling of a crime scene a nd di they follow established procedures required in the dealing with a homicide? That's why the body is justy not dragged out. Once the scene is tainted, the evidence becomes useless for the most part. Anyone who is going to be involved in these incidents should be required to attend the courses available dealing with exactly that...underwater crime scenes.

Divers could have just dragged everything to the surface in the TWA800 incident. Instead they took weeks to document every piece of evidence, regardless of how small.

It may look like a suicide, but years down the road in court when the family is trying to possibly deal with civil motions, the lack of a proper investigation can make you look more than foolish.

This is true


Evidence documentation is priority. Thats one of the drawbacks is what appears to be a suicide today may very well turn out to be a homicide. and as to why divers never went in to begin with is probably that they had no hard proof he actually was in there. Even if it were documented through film he could of easily swam out of camera range and staged the incident.

 

[Guba]

No one ever said that police dive teams have any special training or skills. Don't get me wrong, I have the greatest respect for these guys...they do something that I won't do, that's for sure. However, I dove with a group of police divers once upon a time, and I was surprised. For example, they were taking someone into a lake diving who was not a diver, but a TV reporter. The dive team had given two reporters "training" in a pool, similar to a Discovery Dive experience before heading to a pretty murky lake. The problem was, none of the police divers were instructor or divemaster certified. Once there, I heard the team leader say this to the reporters before descending into about ten feet of water with them, "Now nothing bad is going to happen, but if it does, just hit the inflator button. That'll bring you right up."
Doesn't do a lot to inspire confidence, eh?
To their credit, though, these guys are actively pursuing more training and are learning as they go. They're a pretty new team, and they recognize they have a ways to go.

 

[Papa_Bear]

This might not be the right place for this thread, but hear it goes! I was on a County team for 6-1/2 years that had been volunteer for over thirty years! Great record of safety and recovery with both civilians and Deputies all who loved to dive! A couple of years ago the team powers that be decided to become more "Professional" in nature using grants and department money! Heavy training and no more citizens brought on the team....... Well lots of money later they are finding out you can find divers who can dive, but trying to make divers out of Deputies is another story! Our volunteers dived all the time doing hundred of dives while it seems Deputies only want to dive if paid! They're finding out it takes a certain diver to go into zero viz with perfect buoyancy and calm head! So the possibilities are it may go back to a Volunteer team? We will see!

Next water is not a good crime scene preserver! Dilution, currents, and a host of contaminants are major problems! So, unless there is a rope around the neck or some similar cause and effect evidence it is useless to draw a chalk outline or post tape around the area! Sorry, just the facts, but even the act of removing the body from water destroys evidence! You can take a picture if the rope is there , but lets face it, it is all disturbed the minute it hits the water.....! Flight 800 was picked up by boats in pieces over a large area and rebuilt in a hanger! It was the massive task of finding and recovering it that took so long! Not anyone being careful or documenting on the ocean floor! BTW it is still not clear what brought the plane down to this day, because it went down in the water!

I am not condoning non-trained divers doing dangerous recoveries, but the family does have some rights and if they asked then mission accomplished! I have seen things that made my head shake, but that's government work for you! CYA and never let someone think the job can be done by civilians! "Grow your job and get the promotion!"

I always thought is was funny that our deepest lake in the county was at 100ft, perfect for NItrox and a lot safer, but the government rules say "You can't dive mixed gas without a chamber on site"! Even though the chance was less with the Nitrox! You just have to shake your head!

Well maybe since some voted for change? LOL

I respect our dive team and what I have posted should not be misconstrued as a put down in anyway! It's just the way Government rolls!