Multiple deaths diving off NC coast May 10, 2020?

[Rose Robinson]

Somehow you equate certified and worries about liability with whether a diver is qualified to do a deep dive. An instructor should be the first one that understands that a Deep card requires a very minimal understanding of deep diving





I'm one of those old farts that learned SCUBA out of a book, there was formal training if you were near enough to that training. I didn't have a dive buddy until I had 20 or 30 dives. I started hanging out with more experienced divers and learned deep and deco from them and the Navy dive manual. All this before I had an SPG, the most useful tool in SCUBA I have have ever seen. I don't know if any of those guys had certs, but they knew how to dive, and I'm here today because of their training, not some new cert.

I got an OW cert 17 years after I started diving, and would still been a career OW diver like my buddy Bruce, but events overtook me, that's a story told elsewhere.



More or less since I started using an SPG, I clip it to my left chest D-ring so it is visible at a glance. As one of my mentors said, " ya can't breathe water, kid, pay attention to your air", so I do.


As an aside, back then the normal way to end a dive was to run out of gas. There were j-valves, but there were a lot of post valves, no reserve and the predecessor to the k-valve, so when you ran out, you were out. No one was apprehensive about an OOA because it happened so often, and a lot of training addressed the issue, in case it was a supprise. Oh yeah, this was before the BC.

My point is that there is a lot more stress, and a lot less training, surrounding an OOA now than when it I taught myself or others were trained. There is a difference when confronted by a OOA, for any reason, between the verge panic and here we go again. Anybody can dive until TSHTF.

Hello Bob,

Surely you acknowledge the fact that a minimum of understanding has to be better than no understanding.

Rose.

 

[Rose Robinson]

Rose, this accident subforum is supposed to be no blame and for our learning only.

There are many divers on Scubaboard who have been diving for decades, some of them from before there was such a thing as certification or formal training.

What I've learned from this thread, is what I've always known. Don't lose track of your remaining gas (and practicing for emergencies is a good idea too).

Hi chillyinCanada,

No blame has been assigned, at least not from me.

My end of this discussion is endeavoring to find reason to those arguing, ''qualification'' can come without training/certification/practical application, in that that order.

Open water certification does not qualify a diver to make a 115'/120' open ocean dive.

And, that any ''argued'' ''minimal'' training gained by Advanced Certification, with a ''Deep'' Specialty, certainly has to be better than not having it!

Rose.

 

[Rose Robinson]

@Rose Robinson The Arabia has had 10 fatalities on her. Most occured in the early days of diving in the 70s and 80s.

Hello Jared,

I have read from two separate authors that the fatality number is 14, with a number being attributed to current, running out of breathing gas and attempting a rapid/uncontrolled ascent to the surface.

The most recent information I have is that the fore-deck is still intact, and minimum bow area penetration is still possible, having said that, penetration if any, may be no longer allowed.

Until the pandemic disrupted my ''flight'' travel, I was in Ontario several times a year for business meetings, my plan is to spend a few days in Tobermory once the pandemic has passed.

Rose.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Maybe ya'll should consider taking Fundies . . .

 

[stuartv]

Stuart,

You didn't answer my question,

Regarding post # 256, and forgetting all about military situations, and only recreational scuba diving, what is your recommended alternative to instruction, certification and practical application?

Rose.

Hi chillyinCanada,

No blame has been assigned, at least not from me.

My end of this discussion is endeavoring to find reason to those arguing, ''qualification'' can come without training/certification/practical application, in that that order.

Who said anything about no instruction and no "practical"?

Note that I never recommended to NOT seek formal instruction. I only said that one CAN become qualified for various things without having formal instruction that produces a C card. Just like my dad did in learning to dive, learning to do decompression dives, and learning to dive caves. Just like I learned how to dive from a boat without taking the Boat Diver course, and how to do drift dives without taking the Drift Diver course, and how to navigate underwater without ever taking the Underwater Navigation course.

The simple answer on how is "find someone that knows how to do what you want to do, and get them to teach you."

How do you know who REALLY knows how to do what you want to do, and can teach you? That is up to you and your due diligence. But, I can assure you that finding that a person has an Instructor card for whatever the subject is no guarantee.

 

[Bob DBF]

Hello Bob,

Surely you acknowledge the fact that a minimum of understanding has to be better than no understanding.

Rose.

Sometimes, depends on the diver. Minimum understanding will transform some divers into experts. And what would be the difference between gaining that same knowledge with a buddy that is experienced in deep diving, as an instructor, other than the card?

The use of Cards as gatekeepers are driven by insurance companies to reduce their liability, it is not because of the extensive training recieved in class, it is in your words a minimum understanding.

Maybe ya'll should consider taking Fundies...

Although I hear it is good training, I didn't know the certification could be used as a deep cert.

 

[scubadada]

If one is following the PADI path, you can be AOW, Deep, and Nitrox certified with just 12 dives, no non-training dives. OW is 4, AOW is 5 and the deep dive can count toward the Deep Specialty, Deep is 3 more, total 4. Nitrox requires no dives (was 2, back in the day).

Personally, I did Nitrox at 40 dives, AOW at 80 dives, and the Deep Specialty at 100 dives. I had 22 non-training dives >100 feet by the time I finished Deep. The only certs I have ever been asked for to do an "advanced" dive, usually depth related, is AOW, occasionally nitrox. I have never been asked for my Deep cert. I don't recall ever being specifically asked for number of dives, most recent dives, or applicable dives (depth, current, cold...) Sometimes the waiver asks for some of this information, don't know if anybody looks at or uses it. For recreational dives, the only extra equipment that has ever been required is an SMB. I don't believe cylinder size has ever been dictated.

It doesn't seem like lack of experience or training was the cause of this accident. Failure to monitor gas appears to be the major contributor.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Although I hear it is good training, I didn't know the certification could be used as a deep cert.

I think this incident is more related to proper gas management than it is to depth.

 

[Bob DBF]

I think this incident is more related to proper gas management than it is to depth.

I would concur, however some promote the use of mixed gasses for dives in that range (100'-110' bottom) due to impairment that may be caused by depth.

 

[Rose Robinson]

Who said anything about no instruction and no "practical"?

Note that I never recommended to NOT seek formal instruction. I only said that one CAN become qualified for various things without having formal instruction that produces a C card. Just like my dad did in learning to dive, learning to do decompression dives, and learning to dive caves. Just like I learned how to dive from a boat without taking the Boat Diver course, and how to do drift dives without taking the Drift Diver course, and how to navigate underwater without ever taking the Underwater Navigation course.

The simple answer on how is "find someone that knows how to do what you want to do, and get them to teach you."

How do you know who REALLY knows how to do what you want to do, and can teach you? That is up to you and your due diligence. But, I can assure you that finding that a person has an Instructor card for whatever the subject is no guarantee.

Stuart,

I'm reading, and mind you, we're only discussing scuba diving, and not ''various things'', that you're OK with taking instruction ''in scuba diving'' from someone who is not certified as a scuba instructor.?

Whether or not the charter operator checks certification for specific specialties, wreck penetration, being a good example, does not remove the fact, that the divers, should not be exceeding the limits of their certification level/gear being used, another example being a ''spare air'' bottle being used for bailout at the outer limits of recreational diving.

Please argue on, I believe I've made my stance clear.

Rose.