Most Wanted Diver Found...

[Photocoz]

Of course not (re: death penalty). And you are right...turning off his air isn't realistic.

Unfortunately, there are some DM's out there that set bad examples...I wish I could say that wasn't true.

As I said yesterday...some may feel I am obsessed or a bit too anal about the reef preservation...well, I am and I'm not ashamed of that. While people touching/harrassing the reef and marine life is only one small piece, it is one part that we as divers can control by educating.

I want everyone to know something Christi said to me in my shop yesterday -

She said, "I am letting this really get to me (she was visably, physically upset by this incident) - maybe I need to let it go" (re: marine life abuser) then she piped up (anyone who knows Christi, knows it is one of things we truly love about her!!) and said, "NO, I can't let it go, because I care so much !!!" And she is right, we all care, but bravo to you Christi for taking the time & energy to go after this, when many would say that it is a shame, and truly hate what was done, but let it go.
You go girl!!!!!! Keep educating!!!!!

 

[ggunn]

Not a witch hunt. I think we all do well to remember that the world is small and growing smaller. You can't be a flaming ********e, even thousands of miles from home, and expect that there not to be consequences. If I knew the name of the individual I would post it. Why not? I can understand Christi's hesitation because she has a business to think of but without such a consideration what's to stop us from naming names? The same holds true for naming dive ops. Why not? Read reviews on tripadvisor and the like. They don't hesitate to name names why should we?

Well, for one thing, there are at least two sides to every story. I wasn't there, I didn't see how serious the initial infraction was, I didn't see how appropriate or inappropriate the DM's reaction was, and I didn't see his alleged retaliation. I don't think that it's right to persecute someone on the basis of hearsay. I'm not saying that he didn't do anything wrong, but what we have here is the word of only one person involved in an altercation. It is simple human nature for one combatant to paint the other person in as dark a light as possible when giving an account of a conflict, and that other person is unavailable for interview.

It is far more important that we educate ourselves and others on the appropriate safeguards of the reef than to publicly crucify one individual for something that probably happens every day, apart from the personal conflict between the DM and the diver. As to the conflict itself, like I said, I wasn't there.

Let it go. Not the education of folks and the protection of the reef, certainly, but this particular incident is the proverbial Dead Horse.

 

[5615mike]

So how about posting the culprit's name and address? Wouldn't that at least be some measure of justice?

hahahaha..........spoken like a true attorney Tim!
Wonderful idea IMO. Hope all is well with you these days

 

[ReefGuy]

Please don't try to interject reason here. Since we can't cut his hoses underwater anymore, we need to mobilize ALF, ELF and PETA, grab our pitchforks and torches, and march on this guy's house and burn it down. That'll show him the seriousness of touching a seahorse. Justice served. :kopfab:

I mean, forget telling this guy that his day of diving is over. Forget circulating his name and card # to other operators that take divers into the preserve so that they can refuse him service. Let's handle this right!

Tim, do your clients include ALF and ELF? Just curious.

Well, for one thing, there are at least two sides to every story. I wasn't there, I didn't see how serious the initial infraction was, I didn't see how appropriate or inappropriate the DM's reaction was, and I didn't see his alleged retaliation. I don't think that it's right to persecute someone on the basis of hearsay. I'm not saying that he didn't do anything wrong, but what we have here is the word of only one person involved in an altercation. It is simple human nature for one combatant to paint the other person in as dark a light as possible when giving an account of a conflict, and that other person is unavailable for interview.

It is far more important that we educate ourselves and others on the appropriate safeguards of the reef than to publicly crucify one individual for something that probably happens every day, apart from the personal conflict between the DM and the diver. As to the conflict itself, like I said, I wasn't there.

Let it go. Not the education of folks and the protection of the reef, certainly, but this particular incident is the proverbial Dead Horse.

 

[mjh]

I can’t condone “slapping” the idiot but I understand the DMs reaction. I dove with a fellow photog buff, and Dive Instructor, who laid waste to the reefs. At one point the diver was crushing a stand of coral to get a seahorse shot. The DM motioned him to get up but was ignored. I couldn’t take it so we lifted him by the tank off the reef and had a long talk with him after. The problem is for everyone we catch there are two we don’t. I don’t see it as vigilantism it is protection of a resource we all share and hope to preserve for future generations. I applaud Christi and her staff’s efforts.

 

[Christi]

I am trying to be as objective as possible about this. I truly am and I welcome the other side's story.

Gordon, I agree, to an extent, this is becoming a dead horse, but I am seeking the truth, whatever it is and I am also trying to ensure that these types of things do not happen again...and that as many people as possible are aware of
1) how serious we take these things
2) that there ARE consequences and
3) the marine park is a FEDERAL area and therefore protected by FEDERAL law...penalties if caught are serious.

So, let this serve as a reminder to everyone. The marine park is federally protected "property." The marine park regulations are federally enforced and marine park guides have the authority to enforce those regulations by taking appropriate measures. Again, I am not condoning violence to do so, just stating some facts.

Last year, some of you may recall a diver trying to kill his divemaster here with another large shop. He was standing on the reef, the DM physically picked him up and removed him from the reef and motioned for him to abort his dive. The diver became irate and turned the DM's air off while also attempting to prevent him from securing an alternate air source from anyone around him.

The feds became involved and actually went to the guys hotel to arrest him. The charges against him were attempted homicide and destrction of federal property...BOTH of which are felonies. By the way, there were NO charges brought against the divemaster for physically grabbing the guy. It is acceptable by local law for a marine park guide to have physical contact with a diver if they feel it is necessary. Is a physical assault necessary, I would think only under extreme conditions as a matter of self defense.

Again, the term "slap" can be taken in many different ways. My DM's actions were demonstrated to me by her AND some of my divers who were direct eye witnesses to the entire incident. Her actions were not violent in nature based on how I saw them. Her "slap" was on the hand/arm to get his attention, and her "push" was an extended arm to keep him back. It was not an aggressive shove as some are making it out to be. I'm doing the best I can to describe this since I can't SHOW you. For what it's worth, we (the DM and I) have talked to SEVERAL DM's and instructor's here about this, including the demonstration, and no one disagrees with what she did in the manner she did it...except of course her stupid remark on her slate.

Cdiver, this "witch hunt" began before we had made an ID of the guy and I was hoping that this would help find him.

Tim, I am not going to name names because it won't really serve any purpose. As I said yesterday several times, hopefully he feels like an idiot and won't ever show his face in Cozumel again...and hopefully he has learned from this and will respect the marine environment a little more wherever he dives in the future.

He IS very lucky that we didn't ID him until he was leaving, because he literally could have been arrested/detained for questioning if I had known his identity and reported him to the marine park and PROFEPO (vs. PROFECO) in time for them to get to him.

On another board this morning, someone who claims to be an eye witness on the guys boat gave yet a different version. I have cut and pasted my response to him here, which will also indicate what he said.

Starts here:
Eye Witness, some questions for you, since I AM interested in hearing the other side as I said yesterday.

I did hear his version of the story second hand and there are some inconsistencies with what you say here today.

He does not deny handling the seahorse. He says he was with his girlfriend showing her the seahorse when it jumped onto his finger. You say you were with him and saw the whole thing, but did not see him handling the seahorse. How is that possible?

He says he never kicked her, you say he did and my witnesses say he did. They say it was clearly intentional.

He says his tank hit her in the face when he turned around. She says his tank never hit her. If a tank hit me in the face, intentional or not, I think I would know it!

According to every other version, the rest of the group was already hitting the safety stop and he was lagging behind. If he is at 50ish feet and you are at the safety stop, could you really see what was going on? Even my 6th diver says that he was really too far back to see what happened, but he saw her write something on her slate as he swam away to meet with his group. He said he didn't notice any "commotion" going on.

I have no doubt that you heard his version when he got on the boat, which is natural and expected.

If it happened the way you say it happened, why wasn't he trying to track ME down to make a complaint about my divemaster? Why didn't he complain to DP about it?

Why hasn't he contacted me since yesterday, Apple gave him my phone number and contact information. As I said, I would like to hear his version direct from him.

If it happened the way you are saying, why didn't my divers come to me and tell me how wrong my DM was? They have no loyalty to this divemaster, as I said, she was filling in for a day as a last minute emergency. However, I should add that she is a highly respected instructor on the island with years of experience. So, if the story happened th way you say, I am very shocked and of course not real happy about it. I would have wanted to hear this sooner.

Additioanlly, when I first went to report the incident, no one, including Apple had heard ANYTHING about it. If it happened this way, why didn't the divemaster report this on his daily report? They are obligated to report any incidents with their divers or others.

My boat was at the surface not far from where you got back on the boat, right over our group of divers.

Joe, this is not bad press for DP. I never once blamed them or indicated that their DM was responsible for not controlling his diver. The actions of a diver do not constitute bad press for a dive op, particularly when the dive op deals with the problem.


So again, if it happened the way you say it did eye witness, I am not happy either. I just find it hard to swallow knowing this particular DM and with five consistent versions of the story. I also wish he would have come to me and complained while on the island.

If he wants to e-mail me rather than call me, I will be happy to hear his version directly from him.

Right after I wrote my last response, I went to see my customers off at Villa Blanca pier. Here is what happened:

I spoke to the pier manager for DP and asked him if he was aware of the situation. He said yes, and he told me, "there isone of the DM's on the boat that day. They were on the Cascabel with two DM's.

I introduced myself to the DM and asked me if he would tell me exactly what he saw that day and exactly what transpired on the boat when his divers surfaced.

He basically confirmed my DM's story and my witnesses story.

He did not see him handling the seahorse, because they were already ascending and this guy and his buddy were still looking at something, but everyone else was already up at the safety stop.. He was watching from above and did not see anything unusual happening. If there had been commotion, I think he would have been able to recognize that, even if he didn't see exactly what transpired.

When they got back on the boat, the guy said NOTHING about being pushed, shoved, slapped, by anyone. The only thing he said was that he had a seahorse on his hand, but it wasn't his fault because it swam to his hand when he stuck his finger out. He DID say that he flipped someone off and that my DM had written on her slate.

I asked the DP DM again, did he say anything about being hit, or kicking anyone, hitting anyone with their tank, or anything? Was he upset and asking to find out who had reprimanded him? He said, NO...he kept his mouth shut. I asked him if they had made a report about anything that day. He said no, because we didn't know there was anything wrong.

I then asked him, "What would YOU have done if you had seen him holding the seahorse?" He said, I would have grabbed his arm and told him no. This has also been the response from several other DM's and instructor's I have spoken to about the incident.

Again, IF she "attacked" him as eye witness says, I don't think he would have stayed quiet about it. His version only came out when he found out that he was caught.

Again, I am seeking the truth...which I suspect lies somewhere in the middle, but closer to my Dm's version based on the consistencies from both sides.

 

[ReefGuy]

In the other thread, your stated recourse would be to (at last resort) TURN OFF THEIR AIR of someone ignoring your demand to surface. That's not very different from the situation you're describing below. This does not exactly lend any reliability to the dive masters stating that the responding dive master did nothing wrong, if this is acceptable behavior in Coz.

Frankly, anyone messing with my air supply without my consent will immediately find themselves on the receiving end of a life-or-death defense from me. And if we both survive, an immediate CRIMINAL complaint. Touching a seahorse is not any reason to risk someone's life.

This could have been responsibly and LEGALLY handled if the dive master had reported the incident to the captain. It could have been resolved immediately on docking by the PROPER authorities. Without putting anyone's life in danger.

By all means, if you can identify them, ban them from the park. That's justifiable, legal, and appropriate.

Some of the responses to this and the other thread are simply frightening. I realize that a lot of people write responses like these just to blow off steam and vent frustration, but there are wackos that really would do some of these things.

Last year, some of you may recall a diver trying to kill his divemaster here with another large shop. He was standing on the reef, the DM physically picked him up and removed him from the reef and motioned for him to abort his dive. The diver became irate and turned the DM's air off while also attempting to prevent him from securing an alternate air source from anyone around him.

 

[Christi]

In the other thread, your stated recourse would be to (at last resort) TURN OFF THEIR AIR of someone ignoring your demand to surface. That's not very different from the situation you're describing below. This does not exactly lend any reliability to the dive masters stating that the responding dive master did nothing wrong, if this is acceptable behavior in Coz.

Frankly, anyone messing with my air supply without my consent will immediately find themselves on the receiving end of a life-or-death defense from me. And if we both survive, an immediate CRIMINAL complaint. Touching a seahorse is not any reason to risk someone's life.

This could have been responsibly and LEGALLY handled if the dive master had reported the incident to the captain. It could have been resolved immediately on docking by the PROPER authorities. Without putting anyone's life in danger.

By all means, if you can identify them, ban them from the park. That's justifiable, legal, and appropriate.

Some of the responses to this and the other thread are simply frightening. I realize that a lot of people write responses like these just to blow off steam and vent frustration, but there are wackos that really would do some of these things.

Nobody messed with anyone's air source and no one turned off anyone's air. Yes, some of those things were said in jest and to blow off steam. No, turning off a divers air is not an acceptable practice. I was stating a hypothetical that IF...CAPITAL IF...I felt MY life was in danger and I had absolutely no other recorse at the time, that would be an absolute last resort action.

Don't confuse the situation I recapped from last year. Last year, a CUSTOMER turned off a DM's air source. It was immediately reported and criminal action was brought against the diver/client....not ONLY for the attempted homicide, but for destruction of federal property.

 

[Randy43068]

I'm lost. What's the backround on this??

 

[ReefGuy]

I'm not confusing the issue. I understand that the situation you are referring to was a client response and was indeed more serious than just turning off their air, but the similarities between that incident and your response in the other thread about turning off your client's air are chilling.

I don't know how the laws work in Mexico, but if you escalate the situation into a life threatening one then you become responsible as well. If they refuse your order to come to the surface, don't make the situation worse than it already is. Handle it on the surface. That's what the laws are for. Not for you to take the situation in your own hands.

Randy, begin here: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=104152

Nobody messed with anyone's air source and no one turned off anyone's air. Yes, some of those things were said in jest and to blow off steam. No, turning off a divers air is not an acceptable practice. I was stating a hypothetical that IF...CAPITAL IF...I felt MY life was in danger and I had absolutely no other recorse at the time, that would be an absolute last resort action.

Don't confuse the situation I recapped from last year. Last year, a CUSTOMER turned off a DM's air source. It was immediately reported and criminal action was brought against the diver/client....not ONLY for the attempted homicide, but for destruction of federal property.