Morrison Springs - Sunday 1/17/10

[Aqua Camp]

Whoa, did I say we went into the cave? No! The AOW did not go into the cavern. They stayed where the viz broke at about 40 ft, with a 100% vertical exit. Myself and DM did not penetrate the cave. Minimal overhead, and to a slant exit. I did not say we went into the cave, nor the lower cavern noted as a cave. Dive-holic, I agree additional training is required for cave diving and I stress to ALL students not to put themselves in an overhead environment. Regardless of how comfortable I am or the DM, we do not cave dive!!! Advanced includes either a night or limited viz dive, this was limited / zero for 30 feet. If you go you can enjoy without penetration. I would say okay for AOW for what our guys did, but nothing beyond. I had no idea that I would prompt a debate about cave diving. I only noted that if you break through the black there is in fact a "honey hole", and advanced divers may enjoy it. Let me make myself clear again, I don't condone cave diving, I don't teach it, I do not push myself into those situations, nor will I dive with someone who does.

 

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Whoa, did I say we went into the cave? No! The AOW did not go into the cavern. They stayed where the viz broke at about 40 ft, with a 100% vertical exit. Myself and DM did not penetrate the cave. Minimal overhead, and to a slant exit. I did not say we went into the cave, nor the lower cavern noted as a cave. Dive-holic, I agree additional training is required for cave diving and I stress to ALL students not to put themselves in an overhead environment. Regardless of how comfortable I am or the DM, we do not cave dive!!! Advanced includes either a night or limited viz dive, this was limited / zero for 30 feet. If you go you can enjoy without penetration. I would say okay for AOW for what our guys did, but nothing beyond. I had no idea that I would prompt a debate about cave diving. I only noted that if you break through the black there is in fact a "honey hole", and advanced divers may enjoy it. Let me make myself clear again, I don't condone cave diving, I don't teach it, I do not push myself into those situations, nor will I dive with someone who does.

Thanks for that clarification. Morrison, and Vortex for that matter, usually has more recreational divers than cave or tech divers for obvious reasons. But both are widely known for divers who do go into overhead, far enough to get themselves into trouble. OW divers and Instructors have died in both places for reasons of violating the basic rules of cave diving.

When you said "honey hole" I think most who have been there would believe you were talking about the cave or cavern as it is usually dirty even in the bowl when blown out. The fact that it did prompt a "safety lesson and discussion" is not a bad thing. It wasn't to point a finger at anyone, but to make some general statements to those that may be new and uninformed.

If you ever get the chance to meet, Rob, Mat or myself, you will find we are pretty good guys who are truly concerned. You also won't find us the type to be full of ourselves or that we think we are better than others. We have spent time together and have dived together so I feel I can say this without their permission. Rob is a cave instructor as well as open water. Mat and myself are just guys who are obsessed with cave diving and have had mentor's (still do) and have been able to mentor others who may be a bit behind us in the learning curve. I think that is what we are supposed to do when asked.

Again, thanks for the clarification. But if you liked the outside of a spring, take a cavern and intro course so you can like the inside too. I believe that all divers would benefit greatly by taking these two courses even if they never intend to go into an overhead. There are things taught that you will never get on the recreational side because it is apples and oranges. If you just want to be a better and cleaner diver these two classes will tweak your skills. A lot of things you will learn are common sense when you look back. But since they are not obvious at this point, we don't think of them on our own. You just can't egt that perspective without it being taught. Good luck.

 

[tc]

---

---

A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Some posts advocating unsafe practices have been removed.

---

 

[Dive-aholic]

The responses to those posts should be left in the thread. Please keep them in the back room. I have already copied scuba066's posts and will be reporting him to SSI for unprofessional conduct.

 

[Kevin Carlisle]

I agree with Rob.. I have no problem with someone calling me a name that is unfounded. I support it to be left there. His replies shows a very dangerous problem that gets divers killed in cavern/cave systems. We need to educate these people so systems do not get closed when one of them does get killed.

 

[Aqua Camp]

All, thanks for your comments. Fortunately I was at lunch and missed some of the aforementioned, sorry it got to the point it did. It's not what we say but how things are said when lead begins to fly. I had only good intentions of mentioning a dive site that most would blow off and felt attacked for something I did not say, but was taken out of context. I understand everyone's passion for safety and I share the same. Lessons are good and I appreciate you all.

 

[Hetland]

I did not see anything in the OP that led me to believe that they had done a penetration.

Morrison, at its current conditions, is an advanced dive. The statement, "just follow it to the honey hole" indicates they were in the cavern.

Agreed on the first, but not on the second. In the context of the entire post, I understood that he was talking about the cone of clear water in the area adjacent to the spring's mouth. I could see someone else reading it a different way, but it's jumping to conclusions to assume they did a cave/cavern dive from that statement.

And there is NO agency that allows for overhead obstructions within limits at the level of AOW. Overhead diving is dangerous without the proper training. Almost 600 divers have died in caves, many of them OW divers with no overhead training.

What agency allows this??? AOW is not for overhead diving.. I too enjoyed diving morrison before getting trained for it and I tell everyone I did not have a clue what I was doing. Until you take a class you are going to be clueless as to what can happen. Listen to those with experience, it might save your life. Everything Rob and Mat have said are very true, I would listen if I was you.

PADI has an AOW prerequisite course called "Cavern Diver". I didn't take the class so I can't give any insights into what is included and what is not, but I would guess that someone who was AOW through PADI could also be considered a "Cavern Diver" if they in fact took that course.

Aqua Camp has no overhead training. Look at his profile. He lists every other certification but overhead. There's no assumption on Mat's part.

The assumption was that there was a cave/cavern dive executed. I certainly don't advocate untrained divers entering caves or caverns, but the dive police need to make sure that someone's speeding before they start issuing tickets.

That said, it's always a good thing to talk about safety

 

[paulwall]

In the effort of full disclosure, it is sometimes the case that morrison can get so blown out that you don't find clear water until just outside the lower cavern entrance.

In that case, it is possible to accidentally find yourself in a blacked-out overhead environment in the upper cavern, where you might inadvertently swim deeper into the upper cavern, in blackwater conditions, and not be able to make a direct ascent to the surface (Although that surface would be less than 130' from your deepest penetration). Panic might result in death. I haven't been in the water when it was that bad, but this differs from a night dive in that in the murk, even with a light, you have limited visibility, and may not know how deep you are because you cannot see your gauges.

<rhetorical>If the most experienced diver among you gets into trouble, is it ok to rely on the less experienced divers to get you out</rhetorical>

 

[Aqua Camp]

Thanks for the info paulwall. I know my tail would stay in the truck before I went that deep for clarity. In our situation we had viz about 5 feet below the log.

 

[scubadog1969]

Morrison, at its current conditions, is an advanced dive. The statement, "just follow it to the honey hole" indicates they were in the cavern. And there is NO agency that allows for overhead obstructions within limits at the level of AOW. Overhead diving is dangerous without the proper training. Almost 600 divers have died in caves, many of them OW divers with no overhead training. Aqua Camp has no overhead training. Look at his profile. He lists every other certification but overhead. There's no assumption on Mat's part.

I think if you go in a cave or an over head with out the proper training your a and you need to have your head checked .