Mopeds are dangerous to ALL

[ggunn]

That's true Gordon. Is it my opinion or my tone that is leading you to invite me to leave?

I didn't invite you to leave, and I am not saying "motos are bad" in any sort of absolute sense. My opinion is that it's not a good idea for someone who has never or seldom driven a scooter and who has never driven one in Cozumel traffic to rent one on Cozumel. Hordes of tourists do it every day, and enough of them get hurt that it's obvious to me that it's a dangerous and reckless practice.

You may be an experienced and conscientious moto driver and hence are taking on less risk than would your garden variety gringo on Cozumel. That's fine; I'm not talking to you. But every time I go to Cozumel I see gringos on motos weaving through traffic, racing each other, not paying attention to conditions around them, quite possibly under the influence of alcohol... Sure, diving has its risks as well but I hope we are all handling this risk knowingly and using our training to mitigate it. This is different.

As to my "invitation", by the title of this thread you should probably know what we are talking about. You don't have to participate and you are free to disagree, but the discussion is on topic.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think that Cozumel presents in interesting problem in regard to scooters and mopeds--it is a culture that has a pretty large number of scooters and mopeds but is dominated by drivers (both in the cars and scooters) who are not used to being in such a culture. They haven't learned to coexist.

I saw that in clearly in the last few years while visiting both the Philippines and Bali, two cultures absolutely dominated by scooter traffic. I was in Bali last fall, and while being transported in our van and watching the scooters zoom about, I said aloud a number of times, "I don't see how anyone lives through the day." I can't tell you how many times a scooter going the opposite direction veered into our lane and came at us head on, with neither the scooter nor our driver slowing down while all of us passengers were about to scream. No problem--that was normal behavior for a scooter that had spotted a rare parking space on the opposite side of the road, and in each case he continued to veer and got fully across to that spot just before the collision.

That is just one example, and that was just Bali. In the Philippines, it was far, far, far worse. It looked like mass chaos. There scooters serve as taxis, and they will heap as many people on as they can. Some build frames around them to allow more passengers--I sometimes saw 7 on a scooter.

But I never saw an accident there, either in Bali or the Philippines.

The difference is what I described in the second paragraph. All the drivers have developed customary norms and practices which may or may not coincide with law, and all drivers follow those norms and practices. The tourists do not drive anything there, either cars or scooters, so everyone driving is part of that culture. If I had been driving as a tourist in either Bali or the Philippines, I would have stayed at my first intersection, frozen in terror, until my vehicle either ran out of gas or I died of starvation. For the locals, it is just another day on the road.

 

[dlofting]

If I had been driving as a tourist in either Bali or the Philippines, I would have stayed at my first intersection, frozen in terror, until my vehicle either ran out of gas or I died of starvation. For the locals, it is just another day on the road.

I've rented a car in Roatan, Belize and Cozumel and did OK. Not the same as driving in Canada or the US, and did demand a lot more of my attention, but was quite "doable". The Philippines is totally different.....I could never drive there.

 

[RayfromTX]

How hard would it be to require a motorcycle license in order to rent a two wheel vehicle? I'm pretty sure that the woman I saw run her moto through a billboard didn't have one. I rarely hear the qualifiers like inexperienced, intoxicated or untrained used to describe tourists that shouldn't rent a moto. I typically just hear statements like "not me or anyone I know" or "no tourists should rent motos".

Comparing people on motos to cockroaches and talking about swarms of them as Dave did is disrespectful and ignores the reality of who actually inhabits the island. It sounds like there are a lot of people from the US that are unhappy with who lives in Coz, how they choose to get around and how the legal system is set up. I hear them bemoan the changes that have occured when they themselves are helping to create those changes.

I'm new to the island. I first visited in October and I immediately fell in love with how it is and who lives there. When I'm at an intersection with 10 other moto drivers and the light turns green we all take off together with a bwap bwap and I can't not smile about it. It is part of the experience of cozumel. I have ridden many hundreds of miles on my moto since then. I rarely see crazy tourists being stupid on motos but I tend to avoid the tourist areas except to go to the mega and to get to the boat so I'm not down there after the drinking starts.

What bothers me is not the drunk tourists crashing their motos or the laws that protect the moto operators from a foreigner injuring them and hopping a plane to avoid taking responsibility. I am also not cynical enough to think they are out looking for a tourist to shake down by creating an accident.

What bothers me is a family of 4 on a moto with the kids lacking helmets. The number of helmetless kids that are toted around every day makes me think that life and health are not valued the same. I realize though that I have a very limited view of who they are and why they do what they do.

As my wife often reminds me in these situations. "not my circus, not my monkey". I love it for what it is and try not to bemoan the fact that it isn't more like home.

 

[ggunn]

How hard would it be to require a motorcycle license in order to rent a two wheel vehicle? I'm pretty sure that the woman I saw run her moto through a billboard didn't have one. I rarely hear the qualifiers like inexperienced, intoxicated or untrained used to describe tourists that shouldn't rent a moto. I typically just hear statements like "not me or anyone I know" or "no tourists should rent motos".

Well, since the set of tourists on Cozumel and the set of inexperienced, intoxicated, or untrained people who shouldn't be driving motos is largely congruent, I'd say that the distinction isn't that relevant.

 

[RayfromTX]

I hope I'm not that rare. I hope to see you on the reef. I would say I'd like to run into you but that might be misinterpreted in the context of the thread.

 

[teknitroxdiver]

Heck, I'm both an experienced motorcycle rider and lived in Cozumel with my car for almost 2 years, and I still wouldn't consider renting a moto there. Just like riding a motorcycle in the states, you can be as safe as you want, it's the idiots around you that will do you in.

 

[Dave Dillehay]

Dear Ray from Texas,

Your "smile" about a motocross start at a light tells us a lot.

I vote for the suggested severe crackdown on the "moto free for all"! BTW its not just mopeds, many are now much higher speed real motorcycles. And whether or not you have come to realize it, many locals see any kind of an accident with a wealthy gringo as a big "payday". I have loved and lived in Cozumel since 1992, been a naturalized citizen since 2005, but have a pretty good understanding of what is really going on. One that has "perspective". It is much more dangerous in the streets now. I guess you seem to like it.

Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers

 

[boulderjohn]

As a young adult, my son was a motorcycle, scooter, and moped enthusiast. For a while he worked in a custom motorcycle shop that started with brand new Harley Davidsons and then customized them. On his own, he bought non-functioning scooters, mopeds, and motorcycles and restored them, at least to working order, at most to original condition. His garage was nearly full of them at one point. He even had a tiny motorbike with something like training wheels for his young son. He and his wife used to enjoy going for rides around the neighborhood on a couple of scooters.

That all changed suddenly. He decided that kind of riding was simply too unsafe. All those bikes are gone now. When his father-in-law and two friends were planning to ride their motorcycles down the Baja peninsula to Cabo, he flat out told him "You're gonna die," and one of them did indeed die, losing control on gravel and sliding into the path of an oncoming truck.

So now that motorcycle, scooter, and moped enthusiast wants nothing to do with them--and that is on the quiet residential streets of his Colorado neighborhood.

 

[RayfromTX]

I agree John. In the US, riding on the streets is too dangerous for me so I too have given up my motorcycles for use there. It isn't the risk of death actually but the much greater risk of amputation or head trauma. If you take a sideswipe that crushes your leg between your bike and your scooter, you will not likely get to keep it due to the soft tissue damage. If you visit a discussion forum for amputees, such as lessthan4.org you may be surprised at the number of folks that are there for that reason.

If I lived in Coz full time I would have both but would mostly use the car unless I knew I wouldn't be able to find parking. I'm pretty damned defensive as a driver and perhaps as a poster about this topic. The fact that my use of it on Coz will be limited to about a month out of the year helps me to make my decision.

I had a friend and neighbor that helped me to learn to ride a mountain bike. I warned him of the danger of riding his Harley on gravel roads and on certain roads around Austin where left turners and lane changers are especially dangerous. Think bee caves road or 290W. He moved to Maryland last year and soon after he had a little spill on his mountain bike and died. We take risks to enjoy our lives. I don't drink smoke or eat to excess. I don't frequent dangerous places and I live out of town. I've given up those activities as too risky. I have lost friends due to all of them. I'll ride the scooter carefully on coz and you can trust that I never forget that there are risks associated with it. Something is going to get us. I hope it's not boredom.