Modified ratio deco

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Your screenshot seems to be broken atdotde, but that distribution of time is for some divers under water already difficult. But as I said before, don't panic if you forgot it at 1 depth, add it to the next shallower depth and probably you will be fine too.

I had 1 time that I used 1 bottomtimer and 1 computer. During the dive, the depthsensor of the computer failed. We had looked at a diveplan before, but in such a case you can also use the last known TTS from the computer and use that. That is also a sort of 'ratio' deco for the decostops. Then you have to distribute the TTS over your stops.
 
Oh, somehow the uploaded screen shot has disappeared. But it said something like

Subsurface (5.0.1.0) dive plan created on 26/05/2025
Runtime: 97min, Stop times: + 3:16 /m + 7:02 /min

(with slightly different numbers but you get the point).
 
Two things to clarify. First is Ratio Deco when capitalized is what UTD is currently teaching as that is a branded proper noun vs. the general concepts of using a ratio to determine an ascent profile.
I don't see how a general mathematical concept could be considered a proper noun, regardless of capitalization or lack thereof. UTD doesn't have a trademark on it.

There seem to be some misunderstandings about ratio deco as a general concept. At the core it's nothing more than a recognition that a 3-D surface (total deco time as a function of depth and bottom time) can be approximated by a tangent plane within a limited area, and a 2-D curve (the ascent profile) and be approximated by a series of straight line segments. That's it. It's trivially true and just basic high school math. We can then calculate ratios to align to any underlying deco model for a narrow range of dive profiles.
The leading deco experts are currently diving 50/70, some of the ratios end up at like 10/115 and I believe some agencies are still teaching 20/85 for the planning portion with software which does go against all current decompression research understandings at this time to have a GF-lo be so low but that is a separate discussion as the ratios could obviously be modified. So in that portion, Ratio Deco, in capital letters when referring to UTD's current teaching of it does in fact go against the current state of the art regarding decompression theory, as would using a GF of 20/85 to plan your dive using software and whatever ratios correspond to that profile.
Which leading deco experts are you referring to? I don't know what UTD teaches but I thought the current best practice GF was closer to 70/85? Although the guidance changes all the time so I might not be up to date on that.

Personally I'm skeptical that it really makes much difference for the sort of "regular" tech dives that most of us are doing. Having tried a bunch of different ascent profiles they empirically all seem to work well enough as long as you spend roughly the necessary amount of time in roughly the right depth range. Like if someone got bent using GF-Lo = 50 then switching to GF-Lo = 70 (or whatever) probably wouldn't have saved them: more likely there was some other more fundamental problem.
That however does not make it "extremely risky". What does make it extremely risky is being under the delusion that the human brain can make those kind of repetitive calculations without screwing them up, and that's the real risk with using ratio deco as a primary means of creating an ascent profile.
Where is the risk coming from? If someone isn't able to make those kind of repetitive calculations without screwing them up then they're likely to make other more serious errors in related areas like gas analysis and planning. I'm not trying to be a gatekeeper here but if someone is struggling with this then tech diving isn't the hobby for them. Dive buddies should also do the planning independently and then cross check each other to verify that they have similar numbers.

No one is using ratio deco as a primary means of creating an ascent profile. The whole point is to use your preferred dive planning software as the primary means to calculate a reference point profile, then apply your preferred flavor of ratio deco as a secondary means of adjusting for minor differences in depth and/or bottom time. In practice most divers have at least their reference point profiles written down in wet notes or taped to their scooter as a memory aid.

Mixed gas dive computers have become far cheaper, more reliable, and feature rich now than when various ratio deco approaches first become popular. Most of us leverage dive computers to some extent but because dives don't always go according to plan it's still necessary to be able to estimate on the fly how a minor change in the bottom profile will impact the ascent profile (and thus also gas usage). If your computer screws up due to a software defect or hardware failure or user error you need to be able to recognize when it's giving you numbers that don't make sense.
 
I don't see how a general mathematical concept could be considered a proper noun, regardless of capitalization or lack thereof. UTD doesn't have a trademark on it.

There seem to be some misunderstandings about ratio deco as a general concept. At the core it's nothing more than a recognition that a 3-D surface (total deco time as a function of depth and bottom time) can be approximated by a tangent plane within a limited area, and a 2-D curve (the ascent profile) and be approximated by a series of straight line segments. That's it. It's trivially true and just basic high school math. We can then calculate ratios to align to any underlying deco model for a narrow range of dive profiles.

Which leading deco experts are you referring to? I don't know what UTD teaches but I thought the current best practice GF was closer to 70/85? Although the guidance changes all the time so I might not be up to date on that.

Personally I'm skeptical that it really makes much difference for the sort of "regular" tech dives that most of us are doing. Having tried a bunch of different ascent profiles they empirically all seem to work well enough as long as you spend roughly the necessary amount of time in roughly the right depth range. Like if someone got bent using GF-Lo = 50 then switching to GF-Lo = 70 (or whatever) probably wouldn't have saved them: more likely there was some other more fundamental problem.

Where is the risk coming from? If someone isn't able to make those kind of repetitive calculations without screwing them up then they're likely to make other more serious errors in related areas like gas analysis and planning. I'm not trying to be a gatekeeper here but if someone is struggling with this then tech diving isn't the hobby for them. Dive buddies should also do the planning independently and then cross check each other to verify that they have similar numbers.

No one is using ratio deco as a primary means of creating an ascent profile. The whole point is to use your preferred dive planning software as the primary means to calculate a reference point profile, then apply your preferred flavor of ratio deco as a secondary means of adjusting for minor differences in depth and/or bottom time. In practice most divers have at least their reference point profiles written down in wet notes or taped to their scooter as a memory aid.

Mixed gas dive computers have become far cheaper, more reliable, and feature rich now than when various ratio deco approaches first become popular. Most of us leverage dive computers to some extent but because dives don't always go according to plan it's still necessary to be able to estimate on the fly how a minor change in the bottom profile will impact the ascent profile (and thus also gas usage). If your computer screws up due to a software defect or hardware failure or user error you need to be able to recognize when it's giving you numbers that don't make sense.

UTD has actually copyrighted Ratio Deco so it is a proper noun and they do use it as their primary means of creating an ascent profile.

It's basic high school math, yes, but I would disagree that the ability to do it in your head is a pre-req for being a good tech diver and if you need to write it down, then you must not have a lot of experience with dry gloves in current....

The current best practice is for GF lo to be ~70-80% of GF-hi and then you set the gf-hi based on personal preference. 70/85 is on the higher side though is what I personally dive, though some of the older guys are diving 50/70 which would be on the more conservative side. Generally speaking in that realm though. The issue is the ratios need to be highly dynamic. If you look back into the first reports of the Spisni study we tried to model the Ratio Deco ascent profiles against Buhlmann and I remember one was something stupid like 10/115 which has since been adjusted to correlate to something like 20/95 but either way it's still nowhere near what most of the deco researches would consider a reasonable ascent profile.

If you read the full post that I wrote you'll note that I argue for creating your own boundary limits in software as part of a proper pre-dive plan and use that to check the dive computers.
 
UTD has actually copyrighted Ratio Deco so it is a proper noun and they do use it as their primary means of creating an ascent profile.
That's not how IP law works. According to the U.S. Copyright Office, a short term like "Ratio Deco" can't be copyrighted. It's certainly possible that UTD has copyrighted some training materials which contain that term, but that doesn't mean the term itself is copyrighted.
It's basic high school math, yes, but I would disagree that the ability to do it in your head is a pre-req for being a good tech diver and if you need to write it down, then you must not have a lot of experience with dry gloves in current....
I guess we'll agree to disagree. Writing or printing out reference dive profiles is done on land, typically before arriving at the dive site. Most of my diving is with dry gloves in current.
The current best practice is for GF lo to be ~70-80% of GF-hi and then you set the gf-hi based on personal preference. 70/85 is on the higher side though is what I personally dive, though some of the older guys are diving 50/70 which would be on the more conservative side. Generally speaking in that realm though. The issue is the ratios need to be highly dynamic. If you look back into the first reports of the Spisni study we tried to model the Ratio Deco ascent profiles against Buhlmann and I remember one was something stupid like 10/115 which has since been adjusted to correlate to something like 20/95 but either way it's still nowhere near what most of the deco researches would consider a reasonable ascent profile.
There is no such thing as "the Ratio Deco ascent profiles". The profiles will vary depending on which reference point and constants you pick. If you're bad at math or just like to live dangerously then sure I guess it's theoretically possible to pick ratios which give inadequate or badly shaped deco profiles.

The 2017 Spisni et al study was rather pointless and suffered from severe methodological flaws. They picked one arbitrary, undocumented ratio deco approach and then compared it to Bühlmann ZHL-16C with 30/85 gradient factors. Which is of course completely backwards: if what you want is ZHL-16C with 30/85 then you can pick ratios to approximate that model. Curiously they didn't even explain where they obtained the particular "ratio decompression strategy (RDS)" profile used in the study. Was it from UTD training materials or did they just pull numbers out of their butts? There are no details in the methods section and nothing relevant in the references so who knows? Overall this is just very sloppy irreproducible science, to the extend that I'm disappointed it passed peer review.

If there is any practical conclusion that we can draw from the study it's that sitting on the 21m and 18m stops for extra time after the switch to nitrox 50 (as per the mythical "oxygen window") doesn't help and probably causes additional inert gas loading. And even then the outcomes were only in secondary markers: there were no differences in actual clinical DCS rates between the study arms. But it tells us nothing about the general approach of ratio deco as a dive planning technique.
If you read the full post that I wrote you'll note that I argue for creating your own boundary limits in software as part of a proper pre-dive plan and use that to check the dive computers.
Agreed.

 
Who defined that best practice
David Doolette stated, "I choose my GF low to be about 83% of the GF high" and explained his reasoning in the article I linked above. Whether that's truly the "best" practice is unknown. Empirically it seems to work well enough for now but we can't really justify it based on hard data. Maybe 75% would be better? Who knows...
 
David J. Doolette stated, "I choose my GF low to be about 83% of the GF high" and explained his reasoning in the article I linked above. Whether that's truly the "best" practice is unknown. Empirically it seems to work well enough for now but we can't really justify it based on hard data. Maybe 75% would be better? Who knows...
I think if you asked him if he was defining a best practice when he stated that he’d probably say no.

Here is a definition from NIH:

Best Practice is a superior method or an innovative approach that consistently exceeds standard levels of performance.

In order for a method or an approach to be considered a best practice several of the following conditions must be met:

  • Evidence that there has been an expert review (e.g. independent assessment, award, functional or auditing team)
  • Evidence of a dramatic improvement in performance as compared to standard levels of performance.
  • Evidence that the results are consistently superior to those of similar organizations.
  • Multiple independent sources agree the practice is superior.

I think it’s telling that both the us navy tables and dciem that have been empirically validated have gf highs that are often much much lower than 85 and gf lows often over 100%. Doolette in his RF4 presentation specially mentioned the escalating risk of pDCS as exposure increases…
 
I think if you asked him if he was defining a best practice when he stated that he’d probably say no.

Here is a definition from NIH:

Best Practice is a superior method or an innovative approach that consistently exceeds standard levels of performance.
OK? I never claimed that Dr. Doolette's guidance recommended a "best practice", just that it's generally aligned with other recent studies and empirically seems to work for most of us. There isn't even a "standard level of performance" for tech diving deco in general yet so I don't understand your point. Like we can compare one mathematical model to another for a particular dive profile but we don't have enough data on any of them to proclaim one as the standard.
I think it’s telling that both the us navy tables and dciem that have been empirically validated have gf highs that are often much much lower than 85 and gf lows often over 100%. Doolette in his RF4 presentation specially mentioned the escalating risk of pDCS as exposure increases…
Yes, all else being equal, pDCS increases with deeper and longer dives. No one is disputing that.

US Navy and DCIEM tables don't even really cover the type of bounce dives that most of us are doing with mildly hypoxic trimix bottom gas and then 1 – 3 deco gases for the ascent (or a CCR with variable set points). So we can't do an apples-to-apples comparison. If you're following Bühlmann ZHL-16C then you can drop the GF High variable down as low as you want to be more conservative but at some point it starts to get ridiculous in terms of gas planning and hypothermia. Like I'm cold and bored, let's get out of the water and go for lunch.
 
OK? I never claimed that Dr. Doolette's guidance recommended a "best practice", just that it's generally aligned with other recent studies and empirically seems to work for most of us. There isn't even a "standard level of performance" for tech diving deco in general yet so I don't understand your point. Like we can compare one mathematical model to another for a particular dive profile but we don't have enough data on any of them to proclaim one as the standard.

Yes, all else being equal, pDCS increases with deeper and longer dives. No one is disputing that.

US Navy and DCIEM tables don't even really cover the type of bounce dives that most of us are doing with mildly hypoxic trimix bottom gas and then 1 – 3 deco gases for the ascent (or a CCR with variable set points). So we can't do an apples-to-apples comparison. If you're following Bühlmann ZHL-16C then you can drop the GF High variable down as low as you want to be more conservative but at some point it starts to get ridiculous in terms of gas planning and hypothermia. Like I'm cold and bored, let's get out of the water and go for lunch.

I didn’t quote you saying best practice for to start with… you felt the need to answer it though.

We can easily compare air dives with o2, or fixed ppO2 helitrox dives though, and you’ll find that pretty quickly the GF high is going to be way lower than what most people dive.

If we’re looking for a best practice that’s a much more cogent place to start.
 

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