I'd be interested if it ran similar in price to a standard reg. It's the bubbles in back that make the sizzle. Of course I like things that are rock solid dependable ( I want to keep breathing - no exceptions).
Modern Doublehose???
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rstofer
Contributor
I am planning to buy the harness and tank band system as shown at VintageDoubleHose. I haven't decided on a tank but, for warm water, I am leaning toward an Al 80. For cold water with a 7 mm wetsuit, I am open to suggestions. I have HP 100s, Al 80s and Al 50s but I can buy others if it is the way to go.
As to the horse collar BC: is something like this the way to go? Aquatec Horse Collar BC BC-002 Pl-230 with reviews at scuba.com Any other suggestions?
I will be using a PRAM so I have LP available for the inflator.
Suggestions are welcome!
Richard
pescador775
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For diving in a suit, go to EBay for your tank. Be patient, search for a galvanized, steel tank which looks like a vintage 72 but is rated 3000+ psi. Capacity of this tank is 94.6 cf @ 3300 psi. Date of mfgr would be between 1977-1983. Mfgr is PST. Before jumping in, take 5 lbs off your belt.
I bought the Aquatec horse collar this summer and like it a lot. I used it at the Portage Quarry vintage get together and it drew a lot of interest. Al 80's are like diving with a giant cork on your back. Do a little sniffing around and find a good old steel 72. They are really nice to dive with, vintage or not. Then you can use a USD Kam-eze pack or one of the slightly newer(70's vintage) back packs. Just make sure what ever pack you get has a cam system on it for putting it on the tank. Your fingers will appreciate that. The packs at VDH are really nice too. Make sure though that you read the instructions and understand how to rig the straps for quick release in the event of getting into a jam.
Jim
That AquaTec BC looks cool. I have a couple of horsecollars. I was very lucky to find a pirate black SeaTec new in the box for virtually nothing a few years ago and I enjoy using it a great deal. If I have my weight right I can dive it as if I were without but if I miss my weight just a bit a puff or two makes it right. Also, it can be comforting for us old folks to have the floatation available once back on the surface. Also, there is a handy pocket that is very useful and the horsecollar BC presents a very streamlined profile. Now, if your weight is way heavy and you have to put air into the horsecollar then yes it will rotate you head up and feet down just perfect for rototilling the bottom :0.
On the harness sets from vdh, better check with the man and find out if there is one for 7.25 inch aluminum 80s as the standard one is for 6.9 steel 72s etc. (also aluminum 50 works nice). Most vintage packs with metal bands are set for 6.9 inch tanks and may take some modification to assimilate a 7.25 tank.
N
On the harness sets from vdh, better check with the man and find out if there is one for 7.25 inch aluminum 80s as the standard one is for 6.9 steel 72s etc. (also aluminum 50 works nice). Most vintage packs with metal bands are set for 6.9 inch tanks and may take some modification to assimilate a 7.25 tank.
N
Spimon
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This is a carry-over from Nemrod's comment about desireable features in a doublehose, not what defines a doublehose.
Throughout this post, keep in mind I don't know you (the OP) or your intentions or your background, so all this could be absolutely irrelevant.
My guess is that you're interested in designing a modern doublehose to have manufactured (either privately or by an existing scuba manufactuere) for the general diving market. So time for a quick design lesson. As I said, I have no idea of your background and my own design experience is reasonably limited so take this as you wish.
My guess is that you have 1 of 2 scenario's (markets) in mind.
The first being essentially a vintage doublehose made out of modern materials and slight improvements. It would look the same, work the same and be made of slightly different materials (ie silicones instead of rubbers, etc).Although I think there's a (small) market for this, I'd catergorise it as a 'rebuilt doublehose'. The design work is essentially done, with possibly a few moden tweaks and materials.
The second scenario...
If I was to build a 'modern doublehose' for a large market I'd be trying to move away from the retro look and be thinking about what features must be included (after a lot of market research). Think about what's good about the original doublehose, and what's not so good. Thinking more along the lines of 'whats great about a doublehose, not what IS a doublehose', in the 5 minutes I've spent thinking about this, I'd include on my list of requirements (must haves):
- Breathes in any orientation. Vertical, horizontal, or anything in between.
- Acceptable reliability (I don't know an exact number. Maybe 0.5% failure)
- Aftersale support (availaibilty of parts and possibly service).
- Comforable for the user.
- Easy to use (very little or no new training required before use).
- Bubbles don't exit within the user's field of vision.
- Must be able to be cleared if flooded.
- Compatible with standard modern mouthpieces.
- Salt water, UV and mild chemical resistance.
- Compatible with most existing accesories (SPG's, power inflators and spare 2nd stages).
- Compatible with existing Yoke/DIN fittings.
- Compatible with 300 bar tanks.
- Sell for less than $350
- Able to function correctly at 200m.
- Breathing air must contain a humidity level of 20%
A complete list will take a long time to form but should include everything you want the reg to be and nothing that's not vital in your design. Maybe you want yours to look like a vintage double hose. I don't mind what mine looks like, so didn't include it in my list.
Note the requirements here are what it should do. Not how it should be done. For example, in my list one of the requirements is ability to be cleared if flooded. It does not say 'purge valve' as I don't mind how it's done, as long as it can be done. This helps you to focus on what you want out of this modern doublehose, rather than being stuck with the design you may have in your mind already.
Now the hard part. The next step would be to go through this list and work out how each requirement will be achieved. If you can find a way to achieve everything in your requirements list, it should be impossible to build a product that does not do what you want it to do.
I think the concept of a modern reg that doesn't have its bubbles exist in front of your face is great. I don't think the market for a 'rebuild doublehose' is going to be huge (based on no real evidence). Maybe it's worth talking to retailers (of both modern and vintage equipment) and see what their feelings are about it.
Scubaboard is such a small and specialised community that I wouldn't be plunging into any great design project based just on the opinions here.
Throughout this post, keep in mind I don't know you (the OP) or your intentions or your background, so all this could be absolutely irrelevant.
My guess is that you're interested in designing a modern doublehose to have manufactured (either privately or by an existing scuba manufactuere) for the general diving market. So time for a quick design lesson. As I said, I have no idea of your background and my own design experience is reasonably limited so take this as you wish.
My guess is that you have 1 of 2 scenario's (markets) in mind.
The first being essentially a vintage doublehose made out of modern materials and slight improvements. It would look the same, work the same and be made of slightly different materials (ie silicones instead of rubbers, etc).Although I think there's a (small) market for this, I'd catergorise it as a 'rebuilt doublehose'. The design work is essentially done, with possibly a few moden tweaks and materials.
The second scenario...
If I was to build a 'modern doublehose' for a large market I'd be trying to move away from the retro look and be thinking about what features must be included (after a lot of market research). Think about what's good about the original doublehose, and what's not so good. Thinking more along the lines of 'whats great about a doublehose, not what IS a doublehose', in the 5 minutes I've spent thinking about this, I'd include on my list of requirements (must haves):
- Breathes in any orientation. Vertical, horizontal, or anything in between.
- Acceptable reliability (I don't know an exact number. Maybe 0.5% failure)
- Aftersale support (availaibilty of parts and possibly service).
- Comforable for the user.
- Easy to use (very little or no new training required before use).
- Bubbles don't exit within the user's field of vision.
- Must be able to be cleared if flooded.
- Compatible with standard modern mouthpieces.
- Salt water, UV and mild chemical resistance.
- Compatible with most existing accesories (SPG's, power inflators and spare 2nd stages).
- Compatible with existing Yoke/DIN fittings.
- Compatible with 300 bar tanks.
- Sell for less than $350
- Able to function correctly at 200m.
- Breathing air must contain a humidity level of 20%
A complete list will take a long time to form but should include everything you want the reg to be and nothing that's not vital in your design. Maybe you want yours to look like a vintage double hose. I don't mind what mine looks like, so didn't include it in my list.
Note the requirements here are what it should do. Not how it should be done. For example, in my list one of the requirements is ability to be cleared if flooded. It does not say 'purge valve' as I don't mind how it's done, as long as it can be done. This helps you to focus on what you want out of this modern doublehose, rather than being stuck with the design you may have in your mind already.
Now the hard part. The next step would be to go through this list and work out how each requirement will be achieved. If you can find a way to achieve everything in your requirements list, it should be impossible to build a product that does not do what you want it to do.
I think the concept of a modern reg that doesn't have its bubbles exist in front of your face is great. I don't think the market for a 'rebuild doublehose' is going to be huge (based on no real evidence). Maybe it's worth talking to retailers (of both modern and vintage equipment) and see what their feelings are about it.
Scubaboard is such a small and specialised community that I wouldn't be plunging into any great design project based just on the opinions here.
Your list is excellent and very complete, thanks. Please take these comments as only my own and in no way dismissive of your excellent thoughts.
- Breathes in any orientation. Vertical, horizontal, or anything in between.
(a double hose reg will breath in any orietation already, but due to the distance of the diaphram from the center of the lungs there can be a larger swing in cracking effort than with a single hose--maybe)
- Acceptable reliability, I don't know an exact number. Maybe 0.5% failure.
(Most double hose regs by USD/Voit are exceptionally reliable as they are)
- After sale support, availaibilty of parts and possibly service.
- Comforable for the user.
(comfort is hard to define and largely what the divers are used to)
- Easy to use, very little or no new training required before use.
(the diffuculty of use is much exaggerated and misunderstood)
- Bubbles don't exit within the user's field of vision.
(all double hose regs in common use exhaust behind the divers head)
- Must be able to be cleared if flooded.
(double hose regulators are easy to clear, lift the mouthpiece over the diaphram and it will flow)
- Compatible with standard modern mouthpieces.
- Salt water, UV and mild chemical resistance.
- Compatible with most existing accesories, SPG's, power inflators and spare 2nd stages.
- Compatible with existing Yoke/DIN fittings.
- Compatible with 300 bar tanks.
- Sell for less than $350
- Able to function correctly at 200m.
(most any decent regulator, single or double should handle that and most do)
- Breathing air must contain a humidity level of 20%
(double hose regulators are known NOT to cause dry mouth and as well are very ice formation resistant)
SeaRat has some excellent points on the Trieste, it was a very modern design with the exception of oddities like the integrated yoke. It is certainly a sleek and compact design with potential for high perfromance untapped.
N
- Breathes in any orientation. Vertical, horizontal, or anything in between.
(a double hose reg will breath in any orietation already, but due to the distance of the diaphram from the center of the lungs there can be a larger swing in cracking effort than with a single hose--maybe)
- Acceptable reliability, I don't know an exact number. Maybe 0.5% failure.
(Most double hose regs by USD/Voit are exceptionally reliable as they are)
- After sale support, availaibilty of parts and possibly service.
- Comforable for the user.
(comfort is hard to define and largely what the divers are used to)
- Easy to use, very little or no new training required before use.
(the diffuculty of use is much exaggerated and misunderstood)
- Bubbles don't exit within the user's field of vision.
(all double hose regs in common use exhaust behind the divers head)
- Must be able to be cleared if flooded.
(double hose regulators are easy to clear, lift the mouthpiece over the diaphram and it will flow)
- Compatible with standard modern mouthpieces.
- Salt water, UV and mild chemical resistance.
- Compatible with most existing accesories, SPG's, power inflators and spare 2nd stages.
- Compatible with existing Yoke/DIN fittings.
- Compatible with 300 bar tanks.
- Sell for less than $350
- Able to function correctly at 200m.
(most any decent regulator, single or double should handle that and most do)
- Breathing air must contain a humidity level of 20%
(double hose regulators are known NOT to cause dry mouth and as well are very ice formation resistant)
SeaRat has some excellent points on the Trieste, it was a very modern design with the exception of oddities like the integrated yoke. It is certainly a sleek and compact design with potential for high perfromance untapped.
N
Spimon
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No offence at all taken 
Great diagram too!
My list was an outline of what I think a modern doublehose should be. This is not to say an original doublehouse doesn't already do some (and probably most) of these things. Obviously a lot are 'given', like salt water resistance.
If my list was complete (right down to size, weight, etc..), by making something that satisfies every criteria on the list, it should be impossible to create a product that does not do what it was intended to do.
If the list is complete, you should be able to give it to someone who's never seen a doublehose reg before. If they can create something that satisfies everything on the list, they will have come up with a doublehose reg.
Again, depends if the OP is intending to make an original doublehouse with some modern tweaks, or a completely new reg that includes some original doublehose features.
The fact this thread is in the Vintage Equipment section makes me think the OP has in mind an original doublehose, reproducted using modern materials (not that there's anything wrong with this, just not what my posts are about).
Great diagram too!My list was an outline of what I think a modern doublehose should be. This is not to say an original doublehouse doesn't already do some (and probably most) of these things. Obviously a lot are 'given', like salt water resistance.
If my list was complete (right down to size, weight, etc..), by making something that satisfies every criteria on the list, it should be impossible to create a product that does not do what it was intended to do.
If the list is complete, you should be able to give it to someone who's never seen a doublehose reg before. If they can create something that satisfies everything on the list, they will have come up with a doublehose reg.
Again, depends if the OP is intending to make an original doublehouse with some modern tweaks, or a completely new reg that includes some original doublehose features.
The fact this thread is in the Vintage Equipment section makes me think the OP has in mind an original doublehose, reproducted using modern materials (not that there's anything wrong with this, just not what my posts are about).
pescador775
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It is easy to meet the listed criteria except for cost (retail) and "breathing" in all positions. Although the diagrams are grossly inaccurate they do convey a sense of the issues. As far as appearance, the clock like regulator case houses a large diaphragm necessary to reliability. Minor engraving of the second stage poppet is irrelevant in the DH reg as the mechanical leverage of the components weighs against sensitivity of the system to minor wear. The large, heavy parts are very rugged and long lasting. In 1955, Cousteau claimed publicly that "in 10 years, not a single casualty was ever traced to mechanical failure of the Aqualung". In fact, if kept clean and not abused, the regulators can function for 10 years without service or adjustment except for the soft parts, mainly the flutter valve and check valves in the mouthpiece. Even then, with silicone, cleaning and inspection are the most likely necessary procedures.
If the "breathing" problem could be solved, or could have been, the single hose regulator would have had a much harder climb to dominance. Basically, the early single hose regs were junk compared to the Aquamaster but the "breathing " issue, price, and simplicity for teaching purposes gave the advantage.
The only significant effort to address the problem was undertaken in the 1960's. The resulting "Demone" regulator was not a commercial success. DH and SH users alike were not convinced.
A modified venturi and mouthpiece valve, or a cable adjustment similar to single hose spring tension adjusters, might offer a solution but would require the diver to make numerous adjustments throughout an average dive. IMO, nothing short of an active control system would work. Since the breathing effort varies with mouthpiece position (not chest position) it might be possible to design some sort of compensation into the loop and/or regulator case. It might be based on gravity or pressure sensing.
If the "breathing" problem could be solved, or could have been, the single hose regulator would have had a much harder climb to dominance. Basically, the early single hose regs were junk compared to the Aquamaster but the "breathing " issue, price, and simplicity for teaching purposes gave the advantage.
The only significant effort to address the problem was undertaken in the 1960's. The resulting "Demone" regulator was not a commercial success. DH and SH users alike were not convinced.
A modified venturi and mouthpiece valve, or a cable adjustment similar to single hose spring tension adjusters, might offer a solution but would require the diver to make numerous adjustments throughout an average dive. IMO, nothing short of an active control system would work. Since the breathing effort varies with mouthpiece position (not chest position) it might be possible to design some sort of compensation into the loop and/or regulator case. It might be based on gravity or pressure sensing.
Slonda828,
Yes, there are a lot of old Sportsways first stages, and the later ones were balanced. The problem is that there were a few earlier versions of this double hose, called the Duel Air, which had an upstream tilt valve as the second stage, and the one LP hose fitting had to have either a downstream second stage or a pressure relief valve. You couldn't put only a LP inflator onto it, for instance.
The later double hose, the Hydro Twin that I have, apparently was not made in great numbers, and so is pretty rare. These were also sold by New England Divers, and had their label on them.
Nemrod is right about the DIN fitting--no USA manufactured double hose except the New Mistral had that feature. While I have not dived the New Mistral by Aqualung, and have heard some very bad things about it, when I test-breathed it in a local dive shop, it breathed pretty well. I almost bought one, but I could not get it to fit on any of my double tank rigs--the short hose from the first stage to the second stage did not allow it to be mounted on a twin manifold. This is one consideration for any "new" double hose, is that many people dive either only a single tank, or they dive manifolded doubles with a manifold set up for two first stages, and only on the top of the tank. For a double hose regulator to work well, it needs to be placed either on between the shoulder blades, or on the chest. I actually was contemplating getting a New Mistral to chest-mount it, but never got very far with that idea. But the newer tech diving doubles would not be easily compatible with a double hose regulator.
SeaRat
Yes, there are a lot of old Sportsways first stages, and the later ones were balanced. The problem is that there were a few earlier versions of this double hose, called the Duel Air, which had an upstream tilt valve as the second stage, and the one LP hose fitting had to have either a downstream second stage or a pressure relief valve. You couldn't put only a LP inflator onto it, for instance.
The later double hose, the Hydro Twin that I have, apparently was not made in great numbers, and so is pretty rare. These were also sold by New England Divers, and had their label on them.
Nemrod is right about the DIN fitting--no USA manufactured double hose except the New Mistral had that feature. While I have not dived the New Mistral by Aqualung, and have heard some very bad things about it, when I test-breathed it in a local dive shop, it breathed pretty well. I almost bought one, but I could not get it to fit on any of my double tank rigs--the short hose from the first stage to the second stage did not allow it to be mounted on a twin manifold. This is one consideration for any "new" double hose, is that many people dive either only a single tank, or they dive manifolded doubles with a manifold set up for two first stages, and only on the top of the tank. For a double hose regulator to work well, it needs to be placed either on between the shoulder blades, or on the chest. I actually was contemplating getting a New Mistral to chest-mount it, but never got very far with that idea. But the newer tech diving doubles would not be easily compatible with a double hose regulator.
SeaRat
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