Missing Diver Off Vandenberg?

[Biotech Diver]

Ok. But by the same token, please don't claim it's 100% skill that one of your students didn't cough out his regulator, panicked and drowned in the two or three minutes since you last turned around.

I don’t know him, or you, or anyone else posting in this thread. I don’t know who’s full of s&@t but stayed at a Holiday Inn last night and who is the best dive instructor to ever swim in the ocean. Speculating what happened based on the known facts is fine and constructive but preaching and dog piling and chest thumping is a turn off. I’m not taking anyone’s side but when I see people being called f’ing liars and then 5 other people dog piling on that person it gives me a negative impression of them, not the guy claiming he’s a good instructor who never lost a student. Yeah, I think it’s safe to say he didn’t have his eyes on every single student for every single second, but what I think his original message was is that he thinks in this case the instructor/DM/whatever, didn’t do their job. That may or may not be true. I can however say that from my own experience it only takes a few seconds to lose sight of a diver that was just right there next to you. Then again I wasn’t acting in the capacity of an instructor either so I wasn’t making a conscious effort to keep an eye on them.

 

[Ayisha]

I'm just wondering why this thread doesn't seem to be moderated at all and split off into a few discussions, considering that it's in the accidents forum?

 

[Bob DBF]

I'm just wondering why this thread doesn't seem to be moderated at all and split off into a few discussions, considering that it's in the accidents forum?

Probably no one has asked yet.

 

[Kay Dee]

When someone claims they don't lose sight of their students, I don't believe they mean it in a strict literal sense as if their eyes are glued on a student(s) every single microsecond. This "gotcha" game of saying "see, you just admitted you look back every few minutes, so that means you are a f'ing liar" people are playing and thumping their chests is childish. All it does is turn people off and not want to ever bother posting anything, or maybe just stop visiting the site all together.

Well you either have sight of your students / charges 100% of the time or you don't (and as the majority have rightly said 100% is impossible). And anything can happen in those 'few' minutes , anything, when you don't. So it is simply untrue for anyone to say they never loose sight of their students /charges, which is completely different from saying "I have never lost a student / charge".

And regards the opinion expressed by several people that following your group is not apropriate, or words to that effect. IMO, the one time your definately should follow you charges / be at the rear is during descent / ascent on a line.

 

[SwennyKL]

I also have done several dives on the Vandenberg and think it should not be attempted by divers with limited experience. Its deep and when I have dived it, it has had honking currents and limited viz. The dangerous part is that it is often attempted by divers with a new cert card and a dozen shallow dives in their log book. While the sand is 140 feet, the VDB is a tall wreck where the new diver in search of an AOW cert can be told to just stay around 100' for a few minutes and move shallower. But if the current is running 3-4 knots and there is limited viz, the diver has trouble holding position, loses sight of the DM at the front of the group and anxiously increases breathing. If they turn their head sideways, the mask starts to chatter off the face, the diver tries to clear it, gets panicky and is hopefully not blown off the wreck. Swimming furiously, they catch on to one of the mooring lines with barely enough air left to do a safety stop and surface. This happens often enough that some ops thankfully hang a tank at 15 feet. And I've seen it used often.

I have similar concerns about new divers tackling the Spiegel Grove and even the Thunderbolt. They may typically have less current and better viz but they're deep enough for the inexperienced folks to get in trouble.[/Q

 

[peeweediver]

Ok, time for all to relax and enjoy the soon coming of Spring....maybe. I would like to know if I've missed something. Was the lost/deceased diver being trained or simply doing a "guided dive"? I saw no mention of this being a training dive. If not, why are we descending into the Hell of arguing about what makes the "best of the best" instructor? Back to the original thought about guides/DMs, if this was a regular old dive, albeit, an advanced site, I think we would all agree that a diver can "disappear" very quickly and the DM/guide can't be faulted as deficient. Can we agree on that or is asking for agreement a bad idea on SB?

 

[Biotech Diver]

I did not criticize his diving skills. I criticized his arrogance. In fact, it was him that was criticizing the DM of the deceased woman.

Now, let's be clear here. To say he has 1,000 times more experience would mean he has over 100,000 dives. Doubtful. I'm not criticizing your diving knowledge. I'm criticizing your math skills.

Let's step back and diffuse this a little bit. He made a comment that he thought, based on what has been posted here, that the DM was not doing their job by keeping a better eye on the diver that was lost. He should not have made such an assumption without knowing more facts. These topics are always charged and people like to come out and make judgments before they know the full story. He's not the only person that does this as you can see in anyone of these accident threads. Maybe he's right the DM didn't do their job or maybe he's totally wrong, we don't know yet and maybe never will. All DM's and instructors have their own way of leading/instructing a dive. Some supervise more closely and some give more leeway, all depending on the divers in their group or what they are observing while diving in each scenario. That's normal. Yes, he said he never loses sight of his students but that should not be taken in a strict literal sense like what we see people posting here. It's fair to say "Hey, I don't think you mean you watch them every single second but I get what you are trying to say." It's insulting to call him a f'ing liar, and that's what I thought crossed the line. Once you push someone in a literal sense their natural reaction is to push back, and that's what is happening here.

I'm going to stop pushing back and I'm going to only post again if there is new information on this accident because that's (how/why it happened and how to learn from it) what I really only care about with these threads.

Good luck with your diving adventures and stay safe.

 

[yle]

Actually it's quite simple. Every few minutes roll over on your back, look behind you and check your group. Real Instructors and DM's do it all over the world.
How many classes have you taught? How many groups have you led? I've had ZERO accidents in 27 years as an instructor. Over 20,000 dives lifetime in 39 years as a diver. That's NOT 'Luck", it's "skill". How about you?

We understand you have a lot of experience and a great safety record. As an instructor, my experience is not as extensive as yours, but I also have an impeccable safety record (and by that I mean I've never had a student receive even a minor injury... cut, scrape, bruise... during one of my classes.)

Do I assume this is because I'm so much more attentive and skilled than other instructors? No, I'm not that stupid. I know it's due to a combination of my situational awareness, adhering to my training, taking the time to train my students adequately... and a great deal of luck.

Your safety record is due to the same factors. To suggest that a perfect safety record doesn't involve luck is simply asinine and the hubris of anyone that would believe this of their safety record makes them far more dangerous than they're able to understand.

Congratulations on your record. I hope your luck continues.

 

[yle]

Actually it's quite simple. Every few minutes roll over on your back, look behind you and check your group.

And just assume nothing has happened in the few minutes in between checking on them?

I think everyone is just trying to reconcile your "never lose sight" philosophy with a strategy like "every few minutes... look behind and check on your group."

It's very possible that the guide in this incident was doing just that, following your exact prescription here. But you castigate the guide for "losing sight" of one of their divers.

Please forgive the less experienced here if we find this confusing.

 

[Wookie]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Play nice, you are in a special forum intended to be for accidents and incidents. I removed the snarkiest of messages and thread banned one member. I left some of the off topic posts, as while they may not have been relevant to this thread, they were relevant to leading dives. Remember, there is some divemaster in Key West who feels terrible, and I probably know him/her, so lets not be too excited about casting the first stone....

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