Min Deco for 30/30

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Okay, just a small correction. The research papers were to prove a "non-inferiority" of heliox vs trimix.

What the paper was designed to prove was that heliox was not worse than trimix, as the Navy was considering moving to trimix. You seem to have flipped these around in your analysis.

i.e. Heliox may be better than trimix or it may be the same. (for the type of exposures the navy was testing for)
 
From the conclusion section of the document: "Decompression from trimix bounce dives is not more efficient from heliox bounce dives."

Your last statement about heliox being better or the same is similar to what I mentioned with that parking lot example.
 
They found no difference in efficiency between the two. That's the critical point. No. Difference.

If helium was better, heliox decompression would be more efficient than trimix diving.

I KNEW that you'd eventually mention that "deco strategy" nonsense. I knew it. And I always find these discussions amusing because there's a constant moving of the goalposts. Deco is longer than whatever UTD says? See, look how inadequate the algorithm is! Deco is shorter? This is the correct amount of decompression! So no matter what the UTD version is correct (albeit without a shred of evidence).

Yea, you should know where min deco comes from. I'm surprised you don't given your expert knowledge of decompression (gained from who and during what class is a mystery).
 
They found no difference in efficiency between the two. That's the critical point. No. Difference.

That's not what the conclusion says at all, if you actually read it. I quoted it in the post above if you don't want to actually look at the document. They found trimix was no worse than helitrox with the mixes they chose which (again) is a different argument than helitrox is no different in terms efficiency than trimix for all variations of mixtures. If you can't understand that logic then I'd rather not continue to argue about that particular study with you, since you can't seem to grasp how research papers work and can't understand basic Boolean logic (X >= Y; X could be greater than Y, X could equal Y, but X cannot equal Y until X >= Y is proven false).

If helium was better, heliox decompression would be more efficient than trimix diving.

That's a good hypothesis for another study, I agree. However, in this study they regarded their chosen trimix testing to be "no worse than" their chosen heliox mix. If they added more BT, or increased the FON2 of the trimix to a point that called into question the efficiency of heliox, the results would be a good basis for arguing for or against using heliox over trimix or vice versa. Again, all they proved was that trimix was no worse than heliox. They are choosing not to switch because they've been using heliox and the cost for the US Navy is neglible (also mentioned in the conclusion). They did NOT prove that heliox was as good as trimix, or better than trimix for decompression. Again, this goes back to understanding the null hypothesis.

I KNEW that you'd eventually mention that "deco strategy" nonsense. I knew it. And I always find these discussions amusing because there's a constant moving of the goalposts. Deco is longer than whatever UTD says? See, look how inadequate the algorithm is! Deco is shorter? This is the correct amount of decompression! So no matter what the UTD version is correct (albeit without a shred of evidence).

It's a matter of what deco church and practices you subscribe to. Consequently using the standard 20/85 Buhlmann model on a 100' dive for 30 minutes with 32% does not yield the same ascent profile as what GUE teaches in their min deco strategy. I wonder why that is? The min deco profile GUE teaches is actually shorter (5 min) and starts deeper. I'm not claiming the UTD version is correct or incorrect, but you seem insistent on assuming the GUE method is correct, which by extension you're saying the Buhlmann model is correct. I'd rather let the diver, and the reader decide. I don't think either is terribly worse than the other, I dive with GUE and UTD people regularly. That's why I trained with both, to understand both. I don't think you understand UTD very well and just assume the GUE method is the better one; you seem to just be anti-UTD.

Yea, you should know where min deco comes from. I'm surprised you don't given your expert knowledge of decompression (gained from who and during what class is a mystery).

It's a mystery to you because of what I mentioned above. Anyone who's taken a UTD OW, or Essentials of Recreational class would know I suppose.
 
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Min deco is the max that a decompression algorithm puts out before the stops get longer than 1min. It's not some voodoo.

This stuff isn't a church. There's actual science behind it.

Here's what Simon Mitchell has to say about it: "The obvious question is whether this means that we can all tell our computers that we are diving air diluent when we are really diving trimix. The study does not answer that question unfortunately. Although it suggests that there is no evidence for treating helium and nitrogen differently (as reported by Doolette in animals) it is conceivable that the long held belief that helium needs more decompression has compensated for underestimation of required decompression (to achieve acceptable levels of risk) by the decompression algorithms we all use, and that we are doing the right amount of deco but probably for the wrong reason."

No where do you get anything about ignoring a component of your inert gas (which is exactly what happens when you use a 32% table and dive 25/25).

I'm still waiting for your "research" to support this idea.
 
Here's what Simon Mitchell has to say about it: "The obvious question is whether this means that we can all tell our computers that we are diving air diluent when we are really diving trimix. The study does not answer that question unfortunately. Although it suggests that there is no evidence for treating helium and nitrogen differently (as reported by Doolette in animals) it is conceivable that the long held belief that helium needs more decompression has compensated for underestimation of required decompression (to achieve acceptable levels of risk) by the decompression algorithms we all use, and that we are doing the right amount of deco but probably for the wrong reason."

Is this referring to the study by Doolette you linked to a discussion about? The study does answer that question actually, that's what they are presenting next week in Mexico and why DAN mentions it on the NEDU milestones page which I also quoted before: Alert Diver | Navy Experimental Diving Unit (NEDU) Milestones ("2015: Conducted a trimix/heliox comparison that showed that there is no 'helium penalty' for decompression").

No where do you get anything about ignoring a component of your inert gas (which is exactly what happens when you use a 32% table and dive 25/25).

I think I've explained 3 different times why I think that's safe to do, again dealing with Graham's Law and the solubility factors of Helium when compared to Nitrogen. I've mentioned before there is no hard research that proves or disproves this idea.

Let me know if there's anything else you want me to repeat a third or fourth time.
 
Do you even know what the helium penalty is? You keep talking about it.

Helium penalty is EXTRA deco because of the helium. You still have to decompress from the helium... just not extra compared to nitrogen.
 
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Do you even know what the helium penalty is? You keep talking about it.

Helium penalty is EXTRA deco because of the helium. You still have to decompress from the helium... just not extra compared to nitrogen.

I guess you are repeating yourself now too? You mentioned this before:

Helium penalty is EXTRA deco because of the helium. You still have to decompress from the helium... just not extra compared to nitrogen.

I agree you still have to decompress from helium, but I'm questioning the depth at which it becomes a factor to worry about due to it's solubility properties and rate of diffusion (for the fifth time now I think). The study you linked neither proves or disproves that hypothesis (I don't feel inclined to count how many times I've mentioned this now). I have no other research that proves or disproves that hypothesis either, other than referring to theories based on Graham's Law, Henry's Law, and the molecular weight and solubility of the gas (for the fifth time I think).

Are you posting just increase trophy points are something? What's the next circle you want to go around?
 
Ima leave you to it at this point. If you want to "believe" what your "church" is putting out go nuts. But don't pretend like what you're doing is backed up by some sort of science.
 
I guess you are repeating yourself now too? You mentioned this before:



I agree you still have to decompress from helium, but I'm questioning the depth at which it becomes a factor to worry about due to it's solubility properties and rate of diffusion (for the fifth time now I think). The study you linked neither proves or disproves that hypothesis (I don't feel inclined to count how many times I've mentioned this now). I have no other research that proves or disproves that hypothesis either, other than referring to theories based on Graham's Law, Henry's Law, and the molecular weight and solubility of the gas (for the fifth time I think).

Are you posting just increase trophy points are something? What's the next circle you want to go around?

maybe you should go to mexico and listen to the talk by Dr. Doolette. I think from diving with him, you and he would have drastically different ideas about what schedules constitute an acceptable risk of DCI
 

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