Meeting the enemy!

[DiveTub]

diverkim once bubbled...
My gut read on the situation is that many instructors are professionals and they dislike having to operate in a conveyor belt fashion churning out new divers and maybe making ends meet. Yes, instructors must sign off on the certifications but enormous pressure is often brought to bear on instructors who refuse to sign for some dive customers deficient in some skills.
But the dive industry for instruction is almost a monopoly now.

I was sick of having to follow the rules the LDS's placed on my teaching. I could not expand on anything, I had so many hours theory, so many hours pool time, had to do so many students per week.
I think some blame needs to be placed on the Dive Shops for doing there Cattle courses in and out and not giving Quality instruction, it is all about the bottom line, as an instructor you are pressed into certifying them, selling them as much gear as you can, and signing them up for there next course, with no emphasis on training Quality.

diverkim once bubbled...

Dive professionals are required to sign an oath upon yearly renewal that they will not speak out aginst the agency.

Where did you get this ? I have never had to sign anything like what you metion ?



Mike
Sign me up to your list.

 

[Scuba]

DSJ,

I agree with you about independent examinations. The problem I see with this is the fact that this is licensing, and the industry would probably fight this tooth and nail. Wether its government mandated or an independent company. They don't want anyone intruding on their turf.

Government isn't going to get involved until bodies start washing up on shore or they figure out how to tax it to death with all kinds of fees. It would be a great challenge for an private company, perhaps non-profit, to make a go at it.

 

[DiverBuoy]

MASS-Diver once bubbled...
That is why most idver fatalities in the US are new divers. That's also why so many of US are getting into DIR. I mean PADI feels that you don't need even need to be good phycial shape to dive.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about, you're just rambling. Show me where you read these things, prove them.

 

[DiveTub]

Scuba once bubbled...
DSJ, I agree with you about independent examinations. The problem I see with this is the fact that this is licensing, and the industry would probably fight this tooth and nail.

Come on guys this is Scuba Diving.
As an instructor I have had a number of students I could not certify.
The Manuals are very clear-cut on what a student must complete to be signed off as a diver. And if they can't meet the requirements then they don’t get the ticket, simple as that.

 

[MikeFerrara]

gedunk once bubbled...
We are all entitled to an opinion and mine is you can't necessarily blame only the agencies for your definition of "bad divers." Can you blame instructors who don't teach to the standards set by their agency? Yup. Can you blame the LDS who forces corner cutting to crank out students? Yup. Can you blame new divers for not working on and improving their skills? Yup. I agree if the agencies have any responsibilty here it is that they have not come up with a good way to cure the above three ailments.

You ever get to Michigan, look me up. I'd like to show you how well a "weak skilled instructor", can teach "weak skilled divers" who seem to just fine in jacket BCD's. BP & wings are great for developing the best possible trim but they are not the holy grail of dive skills.

Ps: I believe we do agree 100% on the hunting thing. Some people will never get the reasons why someone might consider hunting okay. To quote terrible Ted, author of "kill it & grill it", ..... "wack em & stack em."

One correction, that was wack em stack em and pack em. If I remember that was a black bear hunt.

 

[Scuba]

Sidney_Diver

The Manuals are very clear-cut on what a student must complete to be signed off as a diver.

Precisely. Student tries to clear mask twenty times and fails, on his twenty first time - voila, we have completion - and certification.

I'm of course exagerating, just little, not too much.

 

[DSJ]

Sydney_Diver, the point is not that independant examination would change the way YOU teach, but rather it would change the way that the dive mills operate.

You yourself stated that you were sick of the cattle courses and restrictions the LDS put on you. I imagine you went independant so you could teach to your desired level. But what happened at the LDS? Did they suddenly stop taking those students, or did they hire another instructor who would dance to their tune? The idea of independant examination is to level the playing field and give the independent instructor a decent chance. My initial idea was that each agency would set up its own examiners as a way to ensure its standards were being adheared to, but it might just take the government stepping in as it does with flying before it would happen. I'd hate to see that, as my views on government control are very conservative.

I took my OW class from an independant, and appreciated not being given a hard sell for equipment purchase. As I recall only one of my class mates bought a full kit. The rest of us were happy to rent (at a very reasonable rate) from the instructor.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Sydney_Diver once bubbled...




Mike
Sign me up to your list.

Your on. Please anyone else send me a PM so I have a list incase I miss it in a thread.

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


One correction, that was wack em stack em and pack em. If I remember that was a black bear hunt.

Two for three in Pro baseball, your enshrined in the hall, as immortal.

Miss one out of three on this board, you get nailed.

Thanks Mike, if Ted knew he would probably wack, stack & pack me himself.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Dr Paul Thomas once bubbled...
Hi Mike,

I did not suggest that at all. The only comment I made was a profession must have self regulation, including audit and disciplinary procedures and, perhaps, external examination to ensure standards are maintained.

However, not being an instructor I confess I have no idea how you can maintain the independence of a profession and satisfy the demands of your employers and the market.

It must be very difficult.

A note for gedunk. I wonder what it took for PADI to expel those on the list you PM'd me?

Good luck with your efforts, Mike! I'll shut up now.

Dr Paul Thomas,
I was just clearifying my position not arguing yours. PADI can take whatever action they choose in the case of a standards violation or a violation of the membership agreement. I don't believe they publish the reason just the list.