Maui Dive op experience

[KrisB]

Bull- like always you're looking for any chance you can to knock B&B.

I'll speak about it to anyone I think might listen.

The op shouldn't be in business. That's the bottom line. Somehow they've managed, and I'd really like to see that change so the other *good* ops can make some money at it.

 

[Brandon]

Bringing us back to the OP's post, and dealing only with the "safety" issues the OP mentioned - do you think B&B is at fault here, and how so? More so than any other op on the island? If ignoring the BWRAF is a standard practice on dive boats in Maui, is B&B any more at fault than any other operator, or have the other operators just been lucky?

 

[KrisB]

Bringing us back to the OP's post, and dealing only with the "safety" issues the OP mentioned - do you think B&B is at fault here, and how so?

Yes. They took care of swapping tanks, but apparently they didn't check to make sure a) they swapped it to a full tank; and b) even swapped it. *FAIL*

The moment they decided that setting up gear for the divers (standard practice on Maui boats) was a good idea, they took the responsibility for making sure stuff like this was done.

Furthermore, they dropped her in the water without her buddies... and presumably even an adult under whose care she was.

*EPIC FAIL*

More so than any other op on the island?

I'd be saying something similar if another op did it. The difference is, this op has a track record of being complacent like this.

If ignoring the BWRAF is a standard practice on dive boats in Maui, is B&B any more at fault than any other operator, or have the other operators just been lucky?

Well, I don't advocate the boats that have given me grief over that, either... but that's a different topic.

If a boat doesn't allow their divers time to do the check (or encourage that they do it), they need to do it before dropping the diver in the water. That means visually checking the BCD and weights, testing the inflator, and the air gauge.

They apparently failed on this last front.

 

[Brandon]

Yes. They took care of swapping tanks, but apparently they didn't check to make sure a) they swapped it to a full tank; and b) even swapped it. *FAIL*
The moment they decided that setting up gear for the divers (standard practice on Maui boats) was a good idea, they took the responsibility for making sure stuff like this was done.
Furthermore, they dropped her in the water without her buddies... and presumably even an adult under whose care she was.

*EPIC FAIL*

No - setting up gear for divers is a courtesy, it's still the individual diver's responsibility to check that it was done properly.

And since when is putting a diver in the water before their buddies something awful? God forbid someone sit at the surface for a minute or two before their buddies join them...

Or are we making the assumption that she descended without her buddies? Even if that happened - who's fault would that be, exactly?

I'd be saying something similar if another op did it. The difference is, this op has a track record of being complacent like this.

This would read more accurately if you said "I've heard that B&B has a history of being complacent like this, but I myself have no firsthand knowledge."

Well, I don't advocate the boats that have given me grief over that, either... but that's a different topic.

If a boat doesn't allow their divers time to do the check (or encourage that they do it), they need to do it before dropping the diver in the water. That means visually checking the BCD and weights, testing the inflator, and the air gauge.

They apparently failed on this last front.

No dive op in the world "drops divers in the water", as far as I'm aware. Each diver makes a personal choice to undertake the dive, and does so at their own risk. It is always the responsibility of the diver to ensure that they are properly equipped for the dive.

If there's an operator out there that checks the BCD and weights, tests the inflator and air gauge for their divers - great, they're going above and beyond. But it's not anywhere approaching a requirement and it doesn't relieve the diver of their responsibility.

 

[KrisB]

No - setting up gear for divers is a courtesy, it's still the individual diver's responsibility to check that it was done properly.

I'd agree... but as a DM in training, you should realize that if you touch the diver's gear, you are taking on some liability and responsibility in making sure it's working.

If it's the boat op's responsibility to change tanks (which it often is on Maui), they should be making sure they changed the tank.

And since when is putting a diver in the water before their buddies something awful? God forbid someone sit at the surface for a minute or two before their buddies join them...

It was noted this is a 13-year-old, whose certification level (if PADI, for sure... not 100% on other agencies) require that she DIVE WITH AN ADULT.

Look at the OP -- her buddies/parents didn't even have their fins on yet!

This would read more accurately if you said "I've heard that B&B has a history of being complacent like this, but I myself have no firsthand knowledge."

Says you. I have first hand experience with this operator in their shop, and the stories I've received and made the judgement by have been told to me first hand. There are MANY more stories that are third hand that would further convince you that this operator as NO business putting divers in the water.

If there's an operator out there that checks the BCD and weights, tests the inflator and air gauge for their divers - great, they're going above and beyond. But it's not anywhere approaching a requirement and it doesn't relieve the diver of their responsibility.

If you assemble the gear, you'd better make sure it works. Otherwise, the one time it doesn't will end you up in court. And you'll lose.

If you point the divers at a tank, and say "set your gear up there", your liability is much reduced. BUT STILL, the tank had better be full.

Think of this -- 200 psi is low, but 212 *bar* is a full tank. If a diver was trained outside of North America, and sets up rental gear on a tank that has ~200-300 psi, he may not realize that this tank is nearly empty (rather than perhaps slightly overfull). It was the operator's responsibility to provide a full tank... yes it's the diver's to check that it's full... but in this litigious society, who do you REALLY think will win that argument? Remember, the reasonable person is now not much smarter than a door knob.

 

[Peter Guy]

Kris, as I've said I like, and dive with, B & B -- and also Ed Robinson and Mike Severns. As I've written before, it is my experience that B & B caters more to the new and "typical vacation" diver than the other two and thus I've tended to go out with the others the last couple of years.

I stand by my writings above that the diver is ultimately responsible, and in this case, quite frankly her parents were responsible, for confirming that everything had been done correctly.

THAT WRITTEN, I will certainly NOT absolve B & B of an apparent serious mistake by the DM -- he screwed up. Kris, you are absolutely correct that once he took it upon himself to work with the daughter, he had the strong responsibility to "Do It Right" (just kidding! -- couldn't help myself) and, assuming the facts are correct, he didn't and yes, I'm quite sure he would be liable even with the releases. (Honestly, in this case, it would be close to gross negligence in my mind and gross negligence negates releases.)

To the OP -- again, I'm very sorry you had this experience. It is clearly not the experience that many of us have had -- although Kris obviously believes we've "been lucky." In any event, you and your family did find your way to another dive op that provided you with some wonderful experiences and I'm very happy you did.

 

[DiveMaven]

The operators on Maui that I've been diving with who set upgear and/or switch out tanks for me, always do it at the start of the surface interval. That has always given me plenty of time to check my gear and tank pressure LONG before I'm getting ready to splash in for the next dive. My habit is to thoroughly go over my gear immediately upon boarding the boat, and immediately after any switch/change is made by the DM. Then both my buddy and I do a quick check prior to splashing in.

I don't know what happened on the boat and IMO whenever you hear two sides to a story, usually the truth is somewhere in the middle. To me what matters here is that hopefully the OP and family learned something valuable for the future, and that they found a dive operation that met their needs to enjoy diving Maui.

I happen to agree with what Peterguy just said about the possible negligence by the DM. However, since I wasn't on the boat, I'm not really willing to hang either the DM or entire dive operation at this point.

If I put stock in all the gossip I've heard or junk I've read on the internet, I'd frankly be afraid to leave my house. For example, Kris hates my preferred dive operation. He's told me what his concerns are privately, and I listened to him. However, at the end of the day I choose to continue diving with them because in the 50+ dives I've done with them over the past 4 years, I've never had a bad experience....and absolutely adore each and every crew member on their boats, looking forward to spending 2 weeks every year diving with them.

 

[Brandon]

We can argue all day over where the liability lies - but you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm checking my gear each and every time I get in the water, and I'm going to demand my buddies do the same. All the legal liability in the world won't do you a bit of good if you're dead.

The first "safety" in the system failed (the DM checking the gear). It should have been caught by the diver and the diver's buddies. The entire group, consequently, failed. Not just B&B. The OP is trying to pawn off his daughter's responsibility as a diver and his responsibility as a dive buddy and parent onto B&B, and that's just not fair. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

Learn from this and move on, I'm sure you have lots of dives ahead of you in the future as a family. Don't let something so simple as a short filled or unswapped tank ruin your dive, or possibly the rest of your lives.

-B

 

[Shaka Doug]

Begin With Review And Friend

BWRAF to me has always meant:

B = Bouyancy Control Device - check operation of inflator and dumps, does it hold air like it should? Is it full for entering the water?
W = Weights - are they in place? Are they free and clear for easy removal?
R = Releases - check buckles, know location of buckles and how they function, make sure they are secure.
A = Air - is it turned on? Full? Taste/smell OK? Breathe OK? Turn-around pressure point, surfacing pressure, location/function of alternate air source.
F = Final OK, all the other stuff ie: mask, fins, snorkel, knife, flag, camera, lights, gloves, defog, goodie bag, spear, lobster guage, etc. etc. and do this check with and for your buddy, he does it with and for you too after you are fully suited up just before you enter the water.

Another catch phrase to remind you: Big Whales Really Are Friendly

 

[Brandon]

But apparently if you have a DM on the boat who set up your gear, you can ignore all of that. It's their fault if anything goes wrong.

/boggle.

-B