Master Diver - worth getting?

[Clark Fletcher]

Baa haa haaaa! 2500+ dives and you're asking this? The OP is in jest, methinks.

Either that or his profile doesn't accurately reflect his actual number of dives. If you get to 2500+ dives and are only completing your 5th specialty, seems to me you made the decision a long time ago the MSD wasn't worth it. LOL.

I decided to edit this because, reading it after the fact, I could see how the OP might take offense to it. And, that was certainly not my intent. A better wording would be to say that if you have 2500+ dive and are only completing your 5th specialty, you obviously are in the sport for the shear enjoyment and don't care so much about the recognition. And, for that, you earn my respect.

 

[beester]

Let's start with buoyancy and trim. When I got to 30 dives, I thought, "Wow! I'm getting really good at buoyancy control!" When I had abut 80 dives, I thought "I was wrong about being good at buoyancy when I had 30 dives--now I have it mastered!" I had epiphanies of that sort every 80-100 dives. When I started tech, I realized I was still a beginner. I got better and better and better, but with well over a thousand dives now, I know people who still have me blown away. Want to test yourself to see where you are? The next time you do a 3-minute safety stop, do it in horizontal trim (perfectly flat), without going a foot shallower or deeper and without moving a muscle. Now imagine doing that for, say, a 30 minute decompression stop.

Now imagine doing that while accomplishing tasks like writing in a notebook, switching tanks, etc. By switching tanks, I may be talking about taking one that is trailing behind you on a leash. You need to take a tank off the leash, put an old, spent tank on the leash, clip the tank you took off the leash onto your D-rings, switch the regulator you are breathing from now to a different one on the new tank, and stow the regulator and its hose under the rubber bands on the old tank, all while holding that decompression stop.

Next, let's move on to propulsion. Imagine going through a wreck or cave with soft, fine silt on the floor and a hard ceiling with only a few inches higher off the floor than the total thickness of your body and gear. Imagine now that you glide over that floor and under that ceiling without touching the ceiling and its delicate formation or stirring up the silt on the floor. Imagine maneuvering your body through a complex, winding passageway, either in a wreck or a cave, using only the movements of your fins to turn your body without touching anything.

I attribute it to "big fish in small pond" syndrome. You don't know what you don't know and you might feel that you are the best thing since sliced bread but that might be not so hard in your local network of recreational divers. On the other hand I also know very good technical divers who can't teach... so the same goes for every specialism. But for sure the "master scuba diver" card is a good example of this small fish thing.

I'm still a bit involved in our local club diving (CMAS federation) and because I know the president of the video-board in this federation quite well (he is GUE trained) we were asked to give stability/fin technique workshops for people taking video courses. (typically people shooting video can benefit a lot from being stable in the water while taskloaded).

So we started developing the workshop (2 hour theory and 2 hour practice in a 50ft deep pool) and it has progresses in a sort of stability course where also people not interested in video want to participate just to get a check up from these silly gue religious movement guys. (maybe what also helps is that we are just volunteering to do this and the workshop is free).

Classes are small (max 2/3 students per "instructor") and progress in a normal didactical way. However we always start out with just asking everybody in their regular gear to hover in the pool while referencing the platform at 3m (10ft). I've had beginners (OW divers) do better than instructor trainers with literally 1000s of dives but in general almost everybody has a very hard time doing it and during the workshop at least gets a feeling of what is possible. For many it's an eyeopener.

Buoyancy and trim is the basis and if you get that down (+ general awareness of yourself, equipment, surrounding and team) then everything else becomes easy-peasy.

Short video of the workshop.

 

[scubadada]

Either that or his profile doesn't accurately reflect his actual number of dives. If you get to 2500+ dives and are only completing your 5th specialty, seems to me you made the decision a long time ago the MSD wasn't worth it. LOL.

Nice reply from a diver with less than 25 dives. MSD is master of nothing, it simply means you have OW, AOW, RD, 5 specialties, and at least 50 dives. Most experienced divers would know this, it has been discussed on ScubaBoard an infinite number of times

 

[Clark Fletcher]

Nice reply from a diver with less than 25 dives. MSD is master of nothing, it simply means you have OW, AOW, RD, 5 specialties, and at least 50 dives. Most experienced divers would know this, it has been discussed on ScubaBoard an infinite number of times

And, a typical reply from someone who writes a response without actually reading the post. I made NO judgment at all about the worthiness of an MSD cert. All I said was that it seems like he made his decision a long time ago. You don't need diving experience to see that. You only need the ability to read. And yes, I have read those posts discussing whether an MSD cert is worth it.

 

[beester]

I think that is entirely understandable and forgivable. What I think is less, umm, forgivable, is that people complete courses of instruction with no idea of a realistic assessment of their dive skills. Especially if the person has had enough training to earn the MSD card.

You don't know what you don't know so it's very hard to assess yourself. Because even if you are objectif and critical of yourself, you can only evaluate yourself against your own experience. It is a very human thing. Everybody should be very aware of it, because it can lead to overestimation of yourself and can pose a risk. That (cognitive bias) and failure to evaluate risk (normalisation of deviance) are for me the big dangers (also for myself).

Good evaluation comes from trainers or mentors (peers with a lot more experience in your field of diving).

I think every instructor owes it to their students to challenge them - to have their students finish their course feeling good about themselves and what they've done (if they deserve it), but also having had a little taste of humble pie, so they at least have an idea of how much room there still is for improvement. From what little I have seen, I think a LOT of people don't get that. Especially from their OW class. Anybody who gets an MSD card and thinks they are a diving god probably also did not get that.

I don't think that students need to eat humble pie "per sé" when they take a course nor do they need to feel good about themselves. The standarts of the course should be stringent enough (depending on what the goal of course is obviously there is a difference between OW and full cave) to allow good evaluation but you should also only be able to take that course if you are ready (you can only take course 102 after passing 101). If that is the case and you get out of the course having feeling it was not easy but you learned a lot that you can now apply in practice... then it was a good course.

Easier said than done.

 

[stuartv]

You don't know what you don't know so it's very hard to assess yourself. Because even if you are objectif and critical of yourself, you can only evaluate yourself against your own experience. It is a very human thing. Everybody should be very aware of it, because it can lead to overestimation of yourself and can pose a risk. That (cognitive bias) and failure to evaluate risk (normalisation of deviance) are for me the big dangers (also for myself).

Good evaluation comes from trainers or mentors (peers with a lot more experience in your field of diving).



I don't think that students need to eat humble pie "per sé" when they take a course nor do they need to feel good about themselves. The standarts of the course should be stringent enough (depending on what the goal of course is obviously there is a difference between OW and full cave) to allow good evaluation but you should also only be able to take that course if you are ready (you can only take course 102 after passing 101). If that is the case and you get out of the course having feeling it was not easy but you learned a lot that you can now apply in practice... then it was a good course.

Easier said than done.

I watched the video you posted and really liked it. If you are the instructor that is mostly featured in there, with the twinset on, huge props to you. That diver looked REALLY good.

But, regarding your comments above, are you suggesting that the single tank diver in that video could not watch that video and plainly see the difference in his skills (somewhat low level) compared to the skills of his instructor (very high level)? Even if that guy only had 20 dives, it seems to me that he could easily watch himself in that video and evaulate himself to conclude that he has a LOT of room for improvement. So, I don't really know what you are trying to get across when you say that a person can only evaluate themselves against their own experience. To me, it doesn't seem that hard to get a buddy to video you and then evaluate yourself objectively. There are lots of scuba videos out there to compare yourself to.

As for humble pie, that's just a way of suggesting that students should finish a course with SOME idea of where they have room to improve. I think a lot of OW students finish the OW course thinking that they have (for example) pretty good buoyancy control. I did. I have since learned that it wasn't terrible, but it wasn't NEARLY as good as I thought it was. I find a little fault in my OW course for not sending me out into the blue with some idea of how much better my buoyancy could be. As I said before, I suspect that people who get a MSD card and actually think that they are somewhere near the top of the skills pyramid probably didn't get much of that aspect of their training (challenges to show them where they have particular room for improvement), either.

If a course is "stringent enough", as you say, then that probably means the students WILL taste some humble pie during the course. Tech courses seem likely to serve that pie. OW courses and the specialties that usually accompany an MSD cert seem like they often do not.

I have been working as a divemaster for OW courses over the last few months. I don't criticize the instructors. I am observing and learning and I recognize that what I see as a flaw could really be an indication of my lack of experience. So I keep my mouth shut, do my job the best that I can, and try to learn as much as I can (from the instructors and the students). But, so far, it SEEMS to me that the vast majority of our OW students complete their certification without being challenged in a way that leaves them feeling good about what they've done so far but also having an idea of how much further they could go in developing their skills. For example, they might think they have good buoyancy control because they've never actually had anyone say "here, hold your depth right here while you unclip an SMB and inflate it." For that matter, the instructors I work with are still having the students perform the skills while on their knees. So, even less opportunity to see how hard buoyancy control really is, compared to just swimming laps in the pool with no other task than finning and holding a depth.

 

[Wookie]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask so feel free to move it.

Just finishing my 5th PADI specialty and will soon qualify to apply for the Master Diver cert. Have any of you done so? Is it worthwhile? Any advantages to doing so?

Regards,

Bert

Wait until you find someone getting their MI or CD rating. They will do it for free just to get their con ed certs up. I have 2 or 3 MSD cards in various names.

 

[beester]

I watched the video you posted and really liked it. If you are the instructor that is mostly featured in there, with the twinset on, huge props to you. That diver looked REALLY good.

But, regarding your comments above, are you suggesting that the single tank diver in that video could not watch that video and plainly see the difference in his skills (somewhat low level) compared to the skills of his instructor (very high level)? Even if that guy only had 20 dives, it seems to me that he could easily watch himself in that video and evaulate himself to conclude that he has a LOT of room for improvement. So, I don't really know what you are trying to get across when you say that a person can only evaluate themselves against their own experience. To me, it doesn't seem that hard to get a buddy to video you and then evaluate yourself objectively. There are lots of scuba videos out there to compare yourself to.

As for humble pie, that's just a way of suggesting that students should finish a course with SOME idea of where they have room to improve. I think a lot of OW students finish the OW course thinking that they have (for example) pretty good buoyancy control. I did. I have since learned that it wasn't terrible, but it wasn't NEARLY as good as I thought it was. I find a little fault in my OW course for not sending me out into the blue with some idea of how much better my buoyancy could be. As I said before, I suspect that people who get a MSD card and actually think that they are somewhere near the top of the skills pyramid probably didn't get much of that aspect of their training (challenges to show them where they have particular room for improvement), either.

If a course is "stringent enough", as you say, then that probably means the students WILL taste some humble pie during the course. Tech courses seem likely to serve that pie. OW courses and the specialties that usually accompany an MSD cert seem like they often do not.

I have been working as a divemaster for OW courses over the last few months. I don't criticize the instructors. I am observing and learning and I recognize that what I see as a flaw could really be an indication of my lack of experience. So I keep my mouth shut, do my job the best that I can, and try to learn as much as I can (from the instructors and the students). But, so far, it SEEMS to me that the vast majority of our OW students complete their certification without being challenged in a way that leaves them feeling good about what they've done so far but also having an idea of how much further they could go in developing their skills. For example, they might think they have good buoyancy control because they've never actually had anyone say "here, hold your depth right here while you unclip an SMB and inflate it." For that matter, the instructors I work with are still having the students perform the skills while on their knees. So, even less opportunity to see how hard buoyancy control really is, compared to just swimming laps in the pool with no other task than finning and holding a depth.

Well I'm not the guy in the grey dui suit, but I'll tell him that someone likes his style (between you and me and the rest of the board he's a bit primadonna when it comes to stuff like that )... I am in the film but there are in total 4 "instructors" working with students (2/3 students per teacher).

Reason I'm posting this is because in this clip you'll see 2 OW students with approx 25 dives, an AOW/recscue with 100 dives, a master diver with 400 dives, an assistant instructor with 1000+ dives and an instructor trainer with almost 2000 dives. The people struggling the most are not always the divers with the most dives.

Of course it is an eyeopener for them, but they first are already willing to have their "eyes opened", many are not and stay within their small pool being big fish. 2 hours in water time is not enough to get everything done (kicks, stability, trim) but they get a good workout and by the end of it they understand that the bar can be a bit higher then they were used to. Most of them didn't know that that stability in the water is possible with training and that everybody can reach that.

However if you teach beginners how to dive with trim and buyoancy as primary focus you'll achieve this. You can have OW students perform all their drills in mid water in good trim, you just have to teach them. It might take more time and more importantly you need yourself able to do it, but it's entirely possible.


Just to get this out of the way we are not instructors per sé (as in GUE, we are recreational instructors with a GUE tech background but certainly not GUE instructors... that is where we need to eat humble pie... we are nowhere near as good as they are).

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Wait until you find someone getting their MI or CD rating. They will do it for free just to get their con ed certs up. I have 2 or 3 MSD cards in various names.

I do hope you are joking.

 

[Wookie]

In what way? Need to issue some specialties for when you become a CD?