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it isn't about on your knees or not, it's about how comfortable and safe the student diver feels by the time we take them to OW, fact is many if not most these days do NOT. In the "old" days it was far less, hours and hours spent in pool, swimming, snorkeling and once that was mastered the student mastered scuba in the pool. We don't do that anymore.

100% spot on. Courses have just become shorter and shorter to the point people now "qualify" over two weekends.
I agree with you, this is a real issue as how on earth can a person be comfortable underwater after such a short time? Truth is they cant,.... but I understand the shops / schools dilemma as well, the training agencies standards will say you only need do XYZ hours, so for a school, investing more hours (which is what most new students need) increases costs and time, and often, there is a price point on the cost of a course and the client often feels he need not pay for that.

....but Yup, I used to see it daily, newly qualified students with rapid breathing, saucer eyes, minimal in water skills and floating upright in mid water just waiting out time to go back to the boat.

Regrettably, often when divers are as uncomfortable as this they dont buy gear, dont go on trips, dont do follow on courses,.... they just figure its not for them and drop out.

Exactly what the industry doesn't need. So Sad.
 
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100% spot on. Courses have just become shorter and shorter to the point people now "qualify" over two weekends.
I agree with you, this is a real issue as how on earth can a person be comfortable underwater after such a short time? Truth is they cant,.... but I understand the shops / schools dilemma as well, the training agencies standards will say you only need do XYZ hours, so for a school, investing more hours (which is what most new students need) increases costs and time, and often, there is a price point on the cost of a course and the client often feels he need not pay for that.

....but Yup, I used to see it daily, newly qualified students with rapid breathing, saucer eyes, minimal in water skills and floating upright in mid water just waiting out time to go back to the boat.

Regrettably, often when divers are as uncomfortable as this they dont buy gear, dont go on trips, dont do follow on courses,.... they just figure its not for them and drop out.

Exactly what the industry doesn't need. So Sad.

I too am an instructor and I believe that buoyancy is a core skill. But whether you teach someone in the pool in the first few lessons to get comfortable breathing underwater on their knees or neutral has little to do with the discussion on how to get more people into SCUBA and have them stick. If you can't get new customers it doesn't matter. Jus' sayin'

The length of the course isn't an issue either, it's about getting people to do it. When I certified in 1972 the YMCA course as like 10 weeks long. At 15 years old these courses were LONG. If my dad wasn't so interested I doubt I would have passed. It was BORING.

There has to be a balance between the knowledge needed to get you diving and the knowledge you need to become a GOOD diver. I believe that the biggest certifying agency has removed much of the cachet out of diving by promoting how easy and safe it is. IMHO a little negative selling works with scuba just great. "SCUBA is not for everyone! The ocean will gladly let you get hurt or killed, it doesn't care. If you're willing to accept that fact, we can teach you how to avoid the risks but it ultimately comes down to applying what you learn, consistently. Can you do that?"

i also think that you should be able to washout of a scuba class if you demonstrate that you are dangerous to yourself, others or the environment. This everybody's a winner attitude is not good for the sport either.
 
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I too am an instructor and I believe that buoyancy is a core skill. But whether you teach someone in the pool in the first few lessons to get comfortable breathing underwater on their knees or neutral has little to do with the discussion on how to get more people into SCUBA and have them stick. If you can't get new customers it doesn't matter. Jus' sayin'

The length of the course isn't an issue either, it's about getting people to do it. When I certified in 1972 the YMCA course as like 10 weeks long. At 15 years old these courses were LONG. If my dad wasn't so interested I doubt I would have passed. It was BORING.

There has to be a balance between the knowledge needed to get you diving and the knowledge you need to become a GOOD diver. I believe that the biggest certifying agency has removed much of the cachet out of diving by promoting how easy and safe it is. IMHO a little negative selling works with scuba just great. "SCUBA is not for everyone! The ocean will gladly let you get hurt or killed, it doesn't care. If you're willing to accept that fact, we can teach you how to avoid the risks but it ultimately comes down to applying what you learn, consistently. Can you do that?"

i also think that you should be able to washout of a scuba class if you demonstrate that you are dangerous to yourself, others or the environment. This everybody's a winner attitude is not good for the sport either.
This has been beat to death in this thread already from every possible angle, but Why not say it again, it's raining and I'm bored.

Diving went from being an adventure sport only done by a few brave people (mostly men) that had to go through gruelling military style training to be able to do it. They were envied for their macho and swagger.

Now days scuba has evolvbed to a family activity that anybody can do thanks to relaxed teaching standards, abreviated courses and new gear innovations that make it much easier.
Young people don't want that, they want extreme and adventure.
Snowboarding, wakeboarding, dirt bikes, mountain bikes, surfing big gnarly waves, and even freedive spearfishing within a small but loyal community of 20 and 30 somethings is what they're doing.
I even know groups that are into shooting and hunting.

Scuba is off the radar of young people because of the lack of adventure, extreme fun for lack of better words, and the safe family label.
Not to mention the cost of getting geared up for very little payoff in their estimation.
Back in the day all it took to get into scuba was a tank with straps on it and a double hose reg attached and you had a scuba unit ready to go. Divers were already freediving or "skin diving" so basically all they had to do was throw this thing on and go. There were no expensive BC's or computers, gadgets, expensive fins, etc. You could get everything you needed for a few hundred bucks.
I know an old guy who started diving up here in the 50's. Him and his buddy were skin divers and they spearfished (like most divers did then). They remember going down to the city and going in together to buy a brand new Aqualung two hose reg and a tank. One guy would use it while the other one freedove around then they would trade. It was quite novel at the time.
There were no certification agencies then, all there was was an intsruction card in the box that said "never hold your breath underwater while using this unit".
These were the adventure times in diving and the only way for the sport to go was up.
These days there is no more "diving frontier", it's almost like it's run it's course. The people consistently doing it are loyalists that will be around for a long time. Unfortunately there aren't that many of us around. Maybe diving is rebounding to it's natural balance?
That may not be a bad thing.
The industry will have to adjust.
 
The industry has not "adjusted". Real new students at a very low point.

The 12 week courses and multiple OW dives produced divers who kept diving.

Now, with the dumped down "Training" we have so called "divers" who are
uncomfortable and, probably. unsafe. Not a good solution.
 
The industry has not "adjusted". Real new students at a very low point.

The 12 week courses and multiple OW dives produced divers who kept diving.

Now, with the dumped down "Training" we have so called "divers" who are
uncomfortable and, probably. unsafe. Not a good solution.

Well, they will have to adjust sooner or later because as far as I'm concerned they damaged the industry with crappy training that it may never get back to the *ratios it once was.
It's a natural law of supply and demand. They thought by easing up on training they would get more people in, which they did temporarily, but those people weren't as comfotable and confident as their predecesors so the comfort level and commitment wasn't there. People tend to value something that they have to work harder for.

*By ratios I mean diver retention from back in the day when training was rigorous and divers stayed diving because of the greater commitment it took to participate in the sport, vs these days where it's two weekends and the bookwork online.
 
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I live and work in a resort area, and was discussing this thread with the owner of the oldest dive shop in Key West, which was an NASDS "family store" many many years ago. Their opinion? 3 day courses are destroying the diving industry. The diver can go online and sign up for the course. They can pick their facility, in this case, maybe in Key West. They show up in Key West with their book work done, spend 1 day in the pool, 2 days in open water, and they are certified. They have earned their reward, and there is nothing else to see or do, so they go drinking for the rest of the week. The other option is that they go drinking for the entire week anyway. Only 20% of online students actually show up for pool and OW sessions.

Only 20% of online students actually show up for their pool and OW sessions.

Only 20% of online students actually show up for their pool and OW sessions.

I think that's important. It allows the training agencies to claim that participation is at an all time high. Only 20% of these actually start a class. Some smaller % of them actually finish.

The key point (if I haven't made enough of them already) is that none of these folks spend a single dollar in their dive shop in Memphis, or Burlington, or Omaha. They never even walked in the door, and they may not know their LDS even exists. Of course, if your primary business is as a publishing company, publishing books and selling memberships to your club, you don't really give a rat's ass if diver retention is at an all time low, you're selling books and memberships, which is at an all time high. The certification agencies are destroying scuba, and they are laughing all the way to the bank.

Only 20% of online students actually show up for their pool and OW sessions.

Think about that. I teach for 2 separate agencies. I am a facility for one of them. I cannot refuse a student if they sign up for class at my facility. That means, if they sign up for open water, and I am an open water instructor, I must take the student, even if I have no classes scheduled. Even if my primary responsibility is running a boat. Even if I teach that particular class through the other agency.
 
I live and work in a resort area, and was discussing this thread with the owner of the oldest dive shop in Key West, which was an NASDS "family store" many many years ago. Their opinion? 3 day courses are destroying the diving industry. The diver can go online and sign up for the course. They can pick their facility, in this case, maybe in Key West. They show up in Key West with their book work done, spend 1 day in the pool, 2 days in open water, and they are certified. They have earned their reward, and there is nothing else to see or do, so they go drinking for the rest of the week. The other option is that they go drinking for the entire week anyway. Only 20% of online students actually show up for pool and OW sessions.

Only 20% of online students actually show up for their pool and OW sessions.

Only 20% of online students actually show up for their pool and OW sessions.

I think that's important. It allows the training agencies to claim that participation is at an all time high. Only 20% of these actually start a class. Some smaller % of them actually finish.

The key point (if I haven't made enough of them already) is that none of these folks spend a single dollar in their dive shop in Memphis, or Burlington, or Omaha. They never even walked in the door, and they may not know their LDS even exists. Of course, if your primary business is as a publishing company, publishing books and selling memberships to your club, you don't really give a rat's ass if diver retention is at an all time low, you're selling books and memberships, which is at an all time high. The certification agencies are destroying scuba, and they are laughing all the way to the bank.

Only 20% of online students actually show up for their pool and OW sessions.

Think about that. I teach for 2 separate agencies. I am a facility for one of them. I cannot refuse a student if they sign up for class at my facility. That means, if they sign up for open water, and I am an open water instructor, I must take the student, even if I have no classes scheduled. Even if my primary responsibility is running a boat. Even if I teach that particular class through the other agency.
Another example of making it easier also makes it more meaningless.
At least when I got certified I had to drive three cities away to do my book work and pool time. There was no way in hell I was going to waste all that gas and time and then not go out to the ocean and complete the class.
 
Young people don't want that, they want extreme and adventure.

A.) No, they don't.

What's the basis for your hypothesis that they want "extreme" and "adventure"? My converse hypothesis is based on scads of market research and literature. Some people are using the word "adventure" when describing what Millennials are seeking, but they're missing the mark by projecting that word on to what they see them participating in. For an interesting read, pick up a copy of "Millennial Momentum: How A New Generation is Remaking America" for a good look at what they REALLY want.

They want snowboarding, wakeboarding, dirt bikes, mountain bikes, surfing big gnarly waves, and even freedive spearfishing...


B.) Even if they DID want "extreme" and "adventure" none of the things you mention are "extreme" or "an adventure" by any stretch of the imagination in terms of the way the average "young person" participates in these activities. (Don't confuse the stuff you see on GoPro's YouTube channel with being the average person.)

The funny thing is, you essentially tripped over the truth here. But since you didn't recognize it... you managed to pick yourself up and continue along as if nothing ever happened.

:)
 
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Only 20% of online students actually show up for their pool and OW sessions.

Think about that. I teach for 2 separate agencies. I am a facility for one of them. I cannot refuse a student if they sign up for class at my facility. That means, if they sign up for open water, and I am an open water instructor, I must take the student, even if I have no classes scheduled. Even if my primary responsibility is running a boat. Even if I teach that particular class through the other agency.


You have to wonder what proportion of the other 80% would have even signed up for the whole nine yards course.

This seems to be more of a problem with the training agencies than the students or the instructors.
 
A.) No, they don't





B.) Even if they DID want "extreme" and "adventure" none of the things you mention are "extreme" or "an adventure" by any stretch of the imagination in terms of the way the average "young person" participates in these activities. (Don't confuse the stuff you see on GoPro's YouTube channel with being the average person.)

I think Eric has a good point. Yes none of the sports named are 'extreme' (at least for 99.9% of participants), but its easy to find video of 'extreme' examples and that helps the wanna-be fantasy. This is nothing new, for example, the Warren Miller ski movies were not cinematic masterpieces, but helped sell the dream that "hey I could do that".

I think a more interesting comparison would be between diving and other safety-obsessed activities (private pilots or sky-divers)

I personally think that one of the biggest barriers to diving is proximity to interesting spots to dive. With all respect to my land-locked brethren, diving in a quarry just wouldn't excite me, and although I'm in the Pacific NW, it is > 3 hour dive to get somewhere.
 
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