Marketing: Are we ok, or do we need help?

[Wookie]

You have to wonder what proportion of the other 80% would have even signed up for the whole nine yards course.

This seems to be more of a problem with the training agencies than the students or the instructors.

The way it works is that the student signs up for the online course, and pick the dive shop that they will complete the course with. When they finish the classroom portion, the chosen dive shop (which may be here in the keys or in another country) gets a certification of satisfactory completion and a check for $65, more or less, depending on the class. When the student shows up, he or she is charged for gear rental, pool time, and OW checkouts.

What the shop told me was that they get checks for $65, but 80% of the time, they never hear from the student again. So, the student has plunked down $146, taken the course, and disappeared off the face of the earth. NO ONE EVER LAID EYES ON THAT STUDENT. They don't hate their LDS because they don't know what one is. They don't think they have a lousy instructor because they never met him. They never got the opportunity to sleep with their instructor. Insert your favorite cliche here, no one knows who they are.

And we wonder about our marketing efforts? We're not even picking the low hanging fruit anymore.

 

[drrich2]

Let's say the past generation divers, who we're told were mostly men, adventurous types who trained hard for the privilege and were esteemed for the achievement and presumably had a high retention rate, were a number we'll call 'x.'

Let's say the newer, 'softer' divers of the 'family friendly, everybody can dive' modern approach with low time & effort requirements (albeit perhaps higher gear costs), are a different number, which we will call 'y.'

I would think that even today, those people who comprised 'x' in yesteryear would still be around. Unless we believe modern training is damaging them (e.g.: they would've become proficient & competent and persistent under the old training model, but never do under the new), then I figure they can still get into scuba, and gain competence and persist in it.

So maybe 'x' is still out there? Probably not less than it was back in the day?

Then now the total incoming scuba diver consumer base would be comprised of x + y! Which is more than x alone. y Is probably a good deal great than x.

Let's take 20% (a number Wookie used) in another matter, and assume that only 20% of 'y' divers ever improve to the point of being long-term persistent divers.

If 90% of x divers stuck with diving, and 20% of y divers, then the diver consumer pool for businesses would be 90%x + 20%y.

Which is still more than 90%x.

My point is, while total retention may be lower today, as conventional wisdom holds, the total number may still be higher than it would be under the old system. For example, it's better to train 1,000 with a 20% retention rate than 100 with a 100% retention rate (you get double the divers!).

Richard.

P.S.: As a chubby mid.-40's easy going guy, I'd hate to see scuba diving turned into something out of a 'The few, the proud, the Marines' commercial just to attract young alpha males trying to prove they're better than the rest of us.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

A.) No, they don't.

What's the basis for your hypothesis that they want "extreme" and "adventure"? My converse hypothesis is based on scads of market research and literature. Some people are using the word "adventure" when describing what Millennials are seeking, but they're missing the mark by projecting that word on to what they see them participating in. For an interesting read, pick up a copy of "Millennial Momentum: How A New Generation is Remaking America" for a good look at what they REALLY want.




B.) Even if they DID want "extreme" and "adventure" none of the things you mention are "extreme" or "an adventure" by any stretch of the imagination in terms of the way the average "young person" participates in these activities. (Don't confuse the stuff you see on GoPro's YouTube channel with being the average person.)




The funny thing is, you essentially tripped over the truth here. But since you didn't recognize it... you managed to pick yourself up and continue along as if nothing ever happened.

Eric mentions freedive spearfishing and you CLAIM it is not an adventure sport or "extreme"? Upon what basis have you made this determination?

I personally think freedive spearfishing is much, much more of an adventure than most of my scuba diving and that includes solo, deco dives on air to 180 feet. Freedive spearfishing is EXTREMELY dangerous, particularly for new and athletic and adventurous divers. There is a huge push to get them certified and reduce the mortality rate.

Freedive training and the sport itself is undergoing an explosion in popularity. Swimming around holding your breath and trying to shoot a fish and get to the surface before you die IS an extreme sport. Unless you spear little fish in 12 feet of clear water. Even with that, there is the issue of sharks

---------- Post added February 9th, 2014 at 06:54 PM ----------

Let's say the past generation divers, who we're told were mostly men, adventurous types who trained hard for the privilege and were esteemed for the achievement and presumably had a high retention rate, were a number we'll call 'x.'

Let's say the newer, 'softer' divers of the 'family friendly, everybody can dive' modern approach with low time & effort requirements (albeit perhaps higher gear costs), are a different number, which we will call 'y.'

I would think that even today, those people who comprised 'x' in yesteryear would still be around. Unless we believe modern training is damaging them (e.g.: they would've become proficient & competent and persistent under the old training model, but never do under the new), then I figure they can still get into scuba, and gain competence and persist in it.

So maybe 'x' is still out there? Probably not less than it was back in the day?

Then now the total incoming scuba diver consumer base would be comprised of x + y! Which is more than x alone. y Is probably a good deal great than x.

Let's take 20% (a number Wookie used) in another matter, and assume that only 20% of 'y' divers ever improve to the point of being long-term persistent divers.

If 90% of x divers stuck with diving, and 20% of y divers, then the diver consumer pool for businesses would be 90%x + 20%y.

Which is still more than 90%x.

My point is, while total retention may be lower today, as conventional wisdom holds, the total number may still be higher than it would be under the old system. For example, it's better to train 1,000 with a 20% retention rate than 100 with a 100% retention rate (you get double the divers!).

Richard.

P.S.: As a chubby mid.-40's easy going guy, I'd hate to see scuba diving turned into something out of a 'The few, the proud, the Marines' commercial just to attract young alpha males trying to prove they're better than the rest of us.

The point people are making is that the "X-men" are no longer attracted to the sport because it ha been so pussified... so we have a negative delta X and who the hell knows about the Y's..

 

[RJP]

I personally think freedive spearfishing is much, much more of an adventure than most of my scuba diving and that includes solo, deco dives on air to 180 feet. Freedive spearfishing is EXTREMELY dangerous, particularly for new and athletic and adventurous divers. There is a huge push to get them certified and reduce the mortality rate.

I had actually typed a "...with the possible exception of freedive spearfishing..." disclaimer in my post, but in editing I seem to have deleted it.

 

[crosshairs]

The way it works is that the student signs up for the online course, and pick the dive shop that they will complete the course with. When they finish the classroom portion, the chosen dive shop (which may be here in the keys or in another country) gets a certification of satisfactory completion and a check for $65, more or less, depending on the class. When the student shows up, he or she is charged for gear rental, pool time, and OW checkouts.

What the shop told me was that they get checks for $65, but 80% of the time, they never hear from the student again. So, the student has plunked down $146, taken the course, and disappeared off the face of the earth. NO ONE EVER LAID EYES ON THAT STUDENT. They don't hate their LDS because they don't know what one is. They don't think they have a lousy instructor because they never met him. They never got the opportunity to sleep with their instructor. Insert your favorite cliche here, no one knows who they are.

And we wonder about our marketing efforts? We're not even picking the low hanging fruit anymore.

When a student does online training, they are FORCED to select a dive shop, they have no choice in the matter....based on my own limited experience, these students had no intention of ever going to that dive shop, but simply chose it because it was near to their home and without choosing one, you can not move past the registration page...

These students take the class online to minimize the time needed when they are on vacation.... they have not disappeared off the face of the earth, they in fact almost always finish in a tropical location ....all the while some dive shop owner in the states is standing around wondering when the last 3 E-learning students will be showing up...

I know this because I taught many myself while I was in Mexico....they show up to the shop with their E-learning certificate with a US dive shop name right on it, and the US dive shop owner knows nothing about it because PADI never follows up and tells them the student went elsewhere to finish.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

A.) No, they don't.

What's the basis for your hypothesis that they want "extreme" and "adventure"? My converse hypothesis is based on scads of market research and literature. Some people are using the word "adventure" when describing what Millennials are seeking, but they're missing the mark by projecting that word on to what they see them participating in. For an interesting read, pick up a copy of "Millennial Momentum: How A New Generation is Remaking America" for a good look at what they REALLY want.




B.) Even if they DID want "extreme" and "adventure" none of the things you mention are "extreme" or "an adventure" by any stretch of the imagination in terms of the way the average "young person" participates in these activities. (Don't confuse the stuff you see on GoPro's YouTube channel with being the average person.)

The funny thing is, you essentially tripped over the truth here. But since you didn't recognize it... you managed to pick yourself up and continue along as if nothing ever happened.

Are you stalking me?
You've got it out for me that's pretty damn clear, like a little pit bull you are aren't cha.

What about all the media hype about surfing Mavericks, I see dozens upon dozens of young surfers out at our beaches when the surf is running. You don't think them thinking about big waves turns them on?

You don't think super cross is extreme? Young people love to ride dirt bikes. I see dozens of pickups going to and from the mountains with dirt bikes strapped in the bed, mud all over both the truck and the bike. I know they're catching some big air going off jumps. That seems like pretty extreme to me, I sure couldn't do it.
What about all the tricks they do off snow banks while snow boarding and all the "Rad" tricks they do off wakes on the lake. High air heaven.

But I guess you and your egg heads sit in your cubicles and have it all figured out with your sophisticated "market research". All you have to do is go outside and open your eyes.
Maybe that's been the problem the whole time, the big marketing geniuses have it all figured out and what did it get us?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I had actually typed a "...with the possible exception of freedive spearfishing..." disclaimer in my post, but in editing I seem to have deleted it.

Ok then, but you should recognize that freediving (without a speargun) is an extreme sport.

It is growing very fast and is being taken up by young athletic people. So when we see a related sport (like freediving) growing rapidly and scuba declining, possibly there may be some useful information that can be gleaned from this observation.

 

[RJP]

Are you stalking me?
You've got it out for me that's pretty damn clear...

Not at all self absorbed, are you?

:d

Frankly, I didn't even notice to whom I was responding.

What about all the media hype about surfing Mavericks, I see dozens upon dozens of young surfers out at our beaches when the surf is running. You don't think them thinking about big waves turns them on?

You don't think super cross is extreme? Young people love to ride dirt bikes. I see dozens of pickups going to and from the mountains with dirt bikes strapped in the bed, mud all over both the truck and the bike. I know they're catching some big air going off jumps. That seems like pretty extreme to me, I sure couldn't do it.
What about all the tricks they do off snow banks while snow boarding and all the "Rad" tricks they do off wakes on the lake. High air heaven.

I think you're confusing "exciting" with "adventure" and "extreme." You're also confusing "what people watch" with what "some people do."

But I guess you and your egg heads sit in your cubicles and have it all figured out with your sophisticated "market research". All you have to do is go outside and open your eyes.

Maybe that's been the problem the whole time, the big marketing geniuses have it all figured out and what did it get us?

Well, I've not seen any marketing geniuses in the scuba industry... so there's no way to tell what that's gotten us.

PS - I sit in a corner office :d

---------- Post added February 9th, 2014 at 11:00 PM ----------

Ok then, but you should recognize that freediving (without a speargun) is an extreme sport.

It is growing very fast and is being taken up by young athletic people. So when we see a related sport (like freediving) growing rapidly and scuba declining, possibly there may be some useful information that can be gleaned from this observation.

How is freediving an "extreme" sport, other than the "how deep can you go" type? How is it related to scuba diving? How is it unrelated to scuba diving? It might actually be more "different" than it is "related."

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Not at all self absorbed, are you?

:d

Frankly, I didn't even notice to whom I was responding.




I think you're confusing "exciting" with "adventure" and "extreme." You're also confusing "what people watch" with what "some people do."



Well, I've not seen any marketing geniuses in the scuba industry... so there's no way to tell what that's gotten us.

PS - I sit in a corner office :d

---------- Post added February 9th, 2014 at 11:00 PM ----------



How is freediving an "extreme" sport, other than the "how deep can you go" type? How is it related to scuba diving? How is it unrelated to scuba diving? It might actually be more "different" than it is "related."

Freediving is a way to explore the limits of your body. Some people take it to the extreme, some don't. Some people ride cruiser bicycles in flip flops to the beach, others spend many thousands for carbon fiber and race them. There is a wide spectrum in the demographics of both activities.

When a runner or cyclist reaches their maximum they may have to stop. when a freediver exceeds their limit they black out in the water and they are dependent upon a rescue to save their life. When the consequences of a mistake are death, I think that sorta puts it into the extreme category..

Freediving has much more besides how deep you can go. There are competitive events for "face in the water", swimming distance in a pool, swimming with no fins for depth, using a sled, using a fixed weight (for depth) etc.

How is it related to scuba diving.....the activities are similar on many levels and very different on others... that may be why one is growing and the other is not...

It is pretty extreme, if you push your boundaries.

 

[widget]

The industry has not "adjusted". Real new students at a very low point.

The 12 week courses and multiple OW dives produced divers who kept diving.

Now, with the dumped down "Training" we have so called "divers" who are
uncomfortable and, probably. unsafe. Not a good solution.

Yes, I agree, the point I was trying to make was that internationally we have an abysmal retention rate in Scuba, and personally I believe its due to insufficient training on the very first basic course. I believe people also like a challenge, I am not advocating running around with a tank above your head in a military style programme, but just making courses challenging enough time and content wise so students leave the course feeling comfortable and safe.
Not too long ago I can remember the retention rate been at around 60% (ie)of all people entering the sport 60% would continue on and do further courses and stay diving, today, Globally, I dont believe we are anywhere near that figure, 20% is more likely.

Unfortunately the industry cannot survive and grow if we are simply throwing resources at training new students and losing them out the back door as quick as we get them in the front, someone here made a very valid comment that "newly qualified divers may go out on a dive, find they are totally under-trained for the conditions, are nervous, feel unsafe and just sell their gear on the trip back" - and by implication, "drop out" - this is an absolutely wasted opportunity, for the industry to survive and grow we need students to buy into the package, we need divers to feel comfortable in the water on course completion because happy safe divers stay on and do more courses, we need divers to invest in the sport, to save and buy their own gear, we need divers to go on dive trips, both locally and away, uncomfortable and nervous divers dont do this, they figure its not for them and just leave the sport.

Diver Retention is vital to a healthy sport in my opinion.