Marketing: Are we ok, or do we need help?

[Wookie]

If you're not seeing results for years, that's too long. Most people could go out of business by then.

And that's the problem with destination diving versus running a dive shop. A dive shop can make a marketing change and see the results in a very short time. A dive shop can offer a $99 two tank special and see folks walk in the door for the special. A week long liveaboard or resort is booked a year, or in the case of a popular destination (try to book a room on the Arenui for 2016, or on the Nautilus Explorer for 2015) many years in advance. Marketing changes are deathly slow to take effect. I was told by a wise man in the dive travel business once that most resorts and liveaboards don't know when they are going out of business, they wake up one morning broke. Nekton is a prime example of this. One day they are taking reservations, literally the next day the doors are shuttered and folks are left on the dock.

I have studied the demise of the Nekton quite intensely, without input from John Dixon himself, and I think what happened to his operation is that they just couldn't keep up with rising expenses that he had no way of understanding. It happened to a lot of us that year. He literally managed full boats into the ground because he didn't raise his prices fast enough to account for his massive increase in expenses. It's hard to do that in a destination industry. Prices are set a year in advance, you can't change pricing mid year, and when fuel goes up, try to put on a fuel surcharge after folks have a "paid in full" receipt. Why, you might get your very own thread on SB with folks asking why?

I agree with you that someone hiring Duck Diver LLC isn't interested in increasing the market for everyone, that's what DEMA is supposed to do, by name, mission statement, and design. But a guy like me needs more divers coming down the pipeline, which will mean more divers walking in my door. A typical dive shop does not generate enough divers per year to keep my boat full. I'm a bit unique that I carry 24 divers. If I had a 6 pack liveaboard, like a very successful one here in KW, I'd be able to beat them off with a stick, but I have to carry 24 for government contracts, and dive shops can no longer fill that space, because they don't have enough students in the pipeline.

Skiing has marketing groups (National Ski Area Association and Ski and Snowboard Association) that make it their task to increase the stature of skiing and snow sports int he eyes of the consumer. They also assist various ski hills and shops with their individual marketing efforts. Duck Diver LLC helps to accomplish the second part, but when I see the header Marketing: Are we ok, or do we need help? I tend to think of the larger picture rather than the smaller one.

 

[SeaHorse81]

Skiing has marketing groups (National Ski Area Association and Ski and Snowboard Association) that make it their task to increase the stature of skiing and snow sports int he eyes of the consumer. They also assist various ski hills and shops with their individual marketing efforts. Duck Diver LLC helps to accomplish the second part, but when I see the header Marketing: Are we ok, or do we need help? I tend to think of the larger picture rather than the smaller one.

I'm guessing that for now, it's up to each operator to do the best they can to save themselves. DEMA may seem like the obvious candidate for cavalry, but from everything I read, that's just not how they function.

Obviously, individual operators can each do only so much to "save" diving. Is there any organization in which shop owners and dive ops are banded together for the purpose of promoting and developing the industry? Who are the members of the ski-related associations you mention? If there is no such group, is it worth trying to assemble one?

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

And that's the problem with destination diving versus running a dive shop. A dive shop can make a marketing change and see the results in a very short time. A dive shop can offer a $99 two tank special and see folks walk in the door for the special. A week long liveaboard or resort is booked a year, or in the case of a popular destination (try to book a room on the Arenui for 2016, or on the Nautilus Explorer for 2015) many years in advance. Marketing changes are deathly slow to take effect. I was told by a wise man in the dive travel business once that most resorts and liveaboards don't know when they are going out of business, they wake up one morning broke. Nekton is a prime example of this. One day they are taking reservations, literally the next day the doors are shuttered and folks are left on the dock.

I have studied the demise of the Nekton quite intensely, without input from John Dixon himself, and I think what happened to his operation is that they just couldn't keep up with rising expenses that he had no way of understanding. It happened to a lot of us that year. He literally managed full boats into the ground because he didn't raise his prices fast enough to account for his massive increase in expenses. It's hard to do that in a destination industry. Prices are set a year in advance, you can't change pricing mid year, and when fuel goes up, try to put on a fuel surcharge after folks have a "paid in full" receipt. Why, you might get your very own thread on SB with folks asking why?

I agree with you that someone hiring Duck Diver LLC isn't interested in increasing the market for everyone, that's what DEMA is supposed to do, by name, mission statement, and design. But a guy like me needs more divers coming down the pipeline, which will mean more divers walking in my door. A typical dive shop does not generate enough divers per year to keep my boat full. I'm a bit unique that I carry 24 divers. If I had a 6 pack liveaboard, like a very successful one here in KW, I'd be able to beat them off with a stick, but I have to carry 24 for government contracts, and dive shops can no longer fill that space, because they don't have enough students in the pipeline.

Skiing has marketing groups (National Ski Area Association and Ski and Snowboard Association) that make it their task to increase the stature of skiing and snow sports int he eyes of the consumer. They also assist various ski hills and shops with their individual marketing efforts. Duck Diver LLC helps to accomplish the second part, but when I see the header Marketing: Are we ok, or do we need help? I tend to think of the larger picture rather than the smaller one.

I'm still trying to figure out why DEMA is even around. Origianlly Dive Equipment Manufacturers Assoc. and now Dive Equip. Marketing Assoc... from everything I've heard most of the booths are for dive travel, it should be Dive Travel Marketing Association.
How do they make their money? I get the feeling they are just a parasitic entity providing a few well paying jobs to a few people for doing nothing. Why are they even supported?
If part of their contract is to market diving to the general public then they are existing under false pretenses. You can't take peoples' money for a job you're supposed to do and then pocket the money and not do the job, that's called "Fraud".

 

[SeaHorse81]

You can't take peoples' money for a job you're supposed to do and then pocket the money and not do the job, that's called "Fraud".

Buyer beware, and vote with your wallet.

 

[Wookie]

I'm still trying to figure out why DEMA is even around. Origianlly Dive Equipment Manufacturers Assoc. and now Dive Equip. Marketing Assoc... from everything I've heard most of the booths are for dive travel, it should be Dive Travel Marketing Association.
How do they make their money? I get the feeling they are just a parasitic entity providing a few well paying jobs to a few people for doing nothing. Why are they even supported?
If part of their contract is to market diving to the general public then they are existing under false pretenses. You can't take peoples' money for a job you're supposed to do and then pocket the money and not do the job, that's called "Fraud".

Unfortunately, it's the only game in town. I keep hoping they'll get better. Hope is a town in Arkansas, and a very bad business plan.

 

[The Chairman]

Is it bashing when you point out the obvious? I've been accused of being a DEMA basher. I would wager they've done more to try and damage ScubaBoard than any competitor we might have.

The only other person trying to do anything is Gene Muchanski and his Dive Industry Association.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Is it bashing when you point out the obvious? I've been accused of being a DEMA basher. I would wager they've done more to try and damage ScubaBoard than any competitor we might have.

The only other person trying to do anything is Gene Muchanski and his Dive Industry Association.

"Scubaboard bashing"? really?
How?
I don't see how they could have any impact whatsoever. People get into scubadiving, they want to talk about it, they want to see what other people are doing, they want to find out where the best gear deals are, they want to find out where the good boats are, they want to find out where the best places are to go on dive vacations, they want to find out about training, etc.
So they do a google search on "scuba diving" or "scuba diving forums" and scubaboard pops up. How on earth is DEMA going to stop that?
Most divers never see a hint about anything DEMA. DEMA has no impact on the actual diver or their actions or decisions at all.
DEMA is for the most part irrelevant to the average active diver.

It's the diving public that supports the industry not DEMA.

 

[mjrob]

I'm guessing that for now, it's up to each operator to do the best they can to save themselves. DEMA may seem like the obvious candidate for cavalry, but from everything I read, that's just not how they function.

Obviously, individual operators can each do only so much to "save" diving. Is there any organization in which shop owners and dive ops are banded together for the purpose of promoting and developing the industry? Who are the members of the ski-related associations you mention? If there is no such group, is it worth trying to assemble one?

We were just talking about this (again) two days ago. I would love to work to establish such a group so we can all share ideas, improve our businesses and create innovative ways to build more safe divers (and swimmers) together. However, I want to be sure it's not a "bitch and bash" session every time we meet.

DiVentures has the facilities to host a group of like-minded folks who want to get this started and we would absolutely love to do so. All we need is people and we can do this. I think you'll get more benefits from a group like this than just about any other source, if we all agree to be open, honest and productive.

I'd recommend we start in Omaha as it's fairly easy to get here and I'd love to show everyone our operation. SO WHO'S WILLING TO MAKE THAT GIANT STRIDE WITH US!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Unfortunately, it's the only game in town. I keep hoping they'll get better. Hope is a town in Arkansas, and a very bad business plan.

Do you pay them any money and/or do you attend the Vegas show every year?
And if so what are you getting out of it?

What does it cost to have a booth at the show each year?

My local dive shop never goes to the DEMA show anymore. Why should they? It's expensive, all the gear being shown is the same and never changes. A field rep comes into the store anyway to introduce the new stuff. It's a huge waste of money so they don't go.

In your case I'm assuming it's local area dive shops that are feeding your business, correct?
So I would think that direct communication with them will make the biggest impact. I found out about the MV Spree right here on SB. What part of that did DEMA have anything to do with?

I think the smaller local shows like the Long Beach show where the public is allowed to attend is a much better alternative to an "industry proffesional only" show.
It's the individual that supports diving and nobody else. If it wasn't for each and every individual diver there wouldn't be an industry. The money for gear sales and charters isn't going to fall out of the sky, it's going to come out of the diver's wallet.
Why is it so hard for them to grasp that!?

 

[Wookie]

Do you pay them any money and/or do you attend the Vegas show every year?
And if so what are you getting out of it?

What does it cost to have a booth at the show each year?

My local dive shop never goes to the DEMA show anymore. Why should they? It's expensive, all the gear being shown is the same and never changes. A field rep comes into the store anyway to introduce the new stuff. It's a huge waste of money so they don't go.

In your case I'm assuming it's local area dive shops that are feeding your business, correct?
So I would think that direct communication with them will make the biggest impact. I found out about the MV Spree right here on SB. What part of that did DEMA have anything to do with?

I think the smaller local shows like the Long Beach show where the public is allowed to attend is a much better alternative to an "industry proffesional only" show.
It's the individual that supports diving and nobody else. If it wasn't for each and every individual diver there wouldn't be an industry. The money for gear sales and charters isn't going to fall out of the sky, it's going to come out of the diver's wallet.
Why is it so hard for them to grasp that!?

Dues cost $200 per year. A booth at the show is $1795 For that I get a booth at the show, but then, there is travel, hotel, shipping, etc. The Vegas show costs me about $5k, the Orlando show is the same less airfare. What I get is the exposure of many dive shops, and to the industry in general. The one year we didn't show out of the last 25 I got a hundred e-mails asking if we were still in business.

Consumer shows are by far a better bang for the buck. We do Long Beach, but you didn't find me there. We do BTS, which is our best show by far. We will do the Blue Wild starting next year, they are changing the venue slightly for me and a few others. We do the Denver show, because I have crew that live there, it really isn't at a good time for me.

I go to DEMA Show because I have the greatest exposure to the greatest number of dive shops at one time. I sent my crew out on a marketing trip this past spring, they hit 100 dive shops in 30 days. That means that they only missed 1900. You have to put yourself in front of the consumer 7 times before they take a bite. You've seen me on Scuba Board, you might look up the M/V Spree facebook page, You might look up my website, you might sign up for the newsletter, I might send you a direct mailing (although I wouldn't), you might see me at the Long Beach show (but you didn't), but if I had flyers in your dive shop or they had a trip posted, I'd have made my 7 contacts. Your dive shop doesn't go to DEMA, so I have to fly to California and spend a month driving up and down the state trying to find all of them, ask if I can put flyers in their shop, convince them to run a trip, and convince them to allow me to put my DVD in their rotation on the TV that plays all the time in the shop. And, I have to run the boat, rebuild the engines, figure out where the generator is leaking coolant, fix that, replace the carpet, paint the deck, and answer the same questions from the odd lookie-loo that drives in the parking lot.

I'm not complaining, I have a lifestyle job, and I love it. I love being out to sea, and showing divers young and old the wonders of the undersea world. I love it when they come back on the boat and say "It isn't like that in the rest of the Caribbean". I love it when they say "a 3 day trip just wasn't long enough". I love my job, but it is a job. It didn't use to be, it used to be automatic, hang out a dive boat sign and they came a-runnin.

My customer comes mostly from NYC south to Georgia, and inland as far as Ohio. Funny, that's where we spend the bulk of our marketing efforts. I attract the client who wants big fish, who wants to drive to the boat, who wants to bring a ton of camera gear, or who wants to go see some incredible shipwrecks, the kind that sunk by mistake. They don't want to fly, and they have a ton of gear that makes them happy.