Marketing: Are we ok, or do we need help?

[mjrob]

Mike Nelson. My hero. We have all the episodes on DVD and we still enjoy watching the good guy win, regardless of the sometimes hilarious continuity issues.

 

[cardzard]

“If you want to get what you haven’t gotten yet, then you have to do more than what you were doing before.”
― M.F. Moonzajer

 

[DiveNav]

..... His graph represented the current industry: very few youngsters with the bulk being in his and my age group. He had this overlayed with a graph representing Facebook and it was weighted in reverse. Their biggest group was the late teens early twenties and our age group was tiny in comparison. ......

Maybe his graph represents his friends?

On one of our Facebook pages (eDiving siumulator) the 25-34 age group male is the largest one (24%) with the 18-24 being second (17%).

Point is ... maybe it depends on what product you offer ... and to whom?

 

[HowardE]

Oh and Howard, I'm curious: would you agree with me that both the "Be a Diver" and "Drop Zone" campaigns were failures due to ineffective marketing? My perception (which, for everyone, is the only thing that really matters) is that, once again, we witnessed a "preaching to the choir" effort. You have to get the message to people outside the industry to create new divers.

I would agree with you to some extent. Yes, you do have to get the message to people outside of the industry to create new divers. Big picture, that is absolutely true. Even little picture that is true too.

Now since everyone loves to bash "Be A Diver". Without actually looking at exactly how the marketing was done, what were the targets what was the reach? We're just armchair quarterbacking this. As divers, we should expect to NOT be exposed to the selling of diving to non-divers, because why should I expose "Be A Diver" to a group of divers? Isn't that a waste of my budget?

Now don't think I'm defending the Be A Diver campaign, because IMHO, I thought it was stupid. It's certainly much easier to sit here on the sidelines, and say how DEMA has dropped the ball. They suck, don't know what they're doing, and blame them for everything that's wrong with the future of scuba.

But that's not what I was talking about. I was answering the OP which was, is there a need for specialized marketing companies, and the answer is yes.

I know Julie, and I'll say publicly, I encourage her to get out there and recruit more dive shops and others in the industry who desperately need expert help from someone who knows what they're doing.

To clarify my comments about demographics even further...

If I am managing an ad campaign for one of my clients, I'd opt out of the under 25 age group, to have more focus on the people who might actually be interested in (and are more likely to want to learn) diving. I'd go even further to maybe even opt out of the over 70 year old category as well. How many 70+ people are taking scuba lessons? Now don't everybody get their panties in a wad over these generalizations, but quite frankly, it's not my job to save the industry, just to help my clients who are paying for my services. They seem to be quite happy with the results, whereas one of them even mentioned that they had their best holiday season ever, and the only thing they did differently was their approach to their online marketing. Do I select "Scuba" as my keyword target when I'm using keyword based ads? Definitely not, if the target is new diver acquisition. But I'm not necessarily going to give out our tricks and tips as to what works and what doesn't here on SB, because that's proprietary information.

So while your point may be to not "discount any demographic", my point is this... With a finite budget for advertising, should I target the least likely group or the most likely group?? Another way to think of this is like do I want an Uzi or a Barrett? Am I a sniper with precision and accuracy, or a bandito shooting from the hip and hoping to hit something? In the end, what's more effective?

If you want to talk about effective marketing, the choices are clear, people want to spend money to get results that work. If the objective of your advertising/marketing campaigns is to save the scuba industry, then I applaud that initiative, and wish you and everyone who takes on that endeavor all of the best of luck.

YMMV.

Maybe his graph represents his friends?

On one of our Facebook pages (eDiving siumulator) the 25-34 age group male is the largest one (24%) with the 18-24 being second (17%).

Point is ... maybe it depends on what product you offer ... and to whom?

Facebook fans don't always turn into customers. Lots of people click "like" for something and never look back. Maybe people are truly interested in the product or not? But I wouldn't use facebook as a representative meter of a company's attraction to an age group.

A certain scuba agency has their "most popular city" from their facebook fan base as "Cairo Egypt" - weird huh?

One of our accounts has thousands of fans, and I'd wager that most of them will never even see that product in real life.

IOW Facebook is fun, important, and influential, but looking at your insights doesn't exactly give you an accurate picture of who your current customers are. But then again... it might?

 

[The Chairman]

Maybe his graph represents his friends?

More likely his colleagues which come from the Scuba Industry. His graph reflects the same age distribution as we see at DEMA. IOW, people with little use for your product.

 

[Wookie]

I still think by focusing on SEO we're doing nothing but stealing divers from other shops/boats. I was told by an SEO person that I don't come up very high when searching for liveaboard dive boats. Well, no, because I don't really compete with other liveaboard dive boats, as anyone who has been on the Spree will attest. I tend to go places other boats don't go, or if they do, we do things that they don't. If you look for "Tortugas Liveaboard", I come up first page. Same for Cay Sal Bank. Bahamas? Nope, because although I go there, I can't compete on price or amenities with the liveaboards that are homeported there. Our SEO is very focused to the folks who want to go where we go. I'm not going to bother focusing on folks who want ensuite heads and warm bathrobes because we don't provide that.

Point is, we need more folks interested in diving, not to steal the folks already diving from each other. The DEMA iniative in Talahassee in early March is a perfect way to expose ourselves to the non-diving public. BeADiver *could* have done that, but I think it lost steam and interest from the entrenched establishment who want us back in the 80's and 90's.

Marketing is a tiring process. You don't see the results of your efforts for years, and by then, many have just given up.

 

[mjrob]

Just to clarify my thoughts: I'm not "bashing" anyone. Hey, the more effort, the better. It's just that, for dollars spent, I like to see results. I don't think those two campaigns provided that. I could be wrong. Again. Today.

And I appreciate your dedication to your clients' needs, H. Makes complete since to me. But, as Quixotesque (I kind of made that term up on the fly) as it sounds, I am hoping to save the scuba industry. I'll keep saying it, more divers makes for more business for us all. If I get to call them customers, I'm happy. But I'm also happy if you get them as well.

 

[SeaHorse81]

Point is, we need more folks interested in diving, not to steal the folks already diving from each other.

Two things:

If "stealing" business from your colleagues is a concern, then you're stealing from them when you're on Facebook or here, or by having a sign on your shop, or by having your business name on your boat. SEO is about making yourself visible, not poaching. Making yourself visible is what any person in business seeks to do. There's nothing dishonest or underhanded about it. If the dive industry is destined to contract, the number of ops will have to contact until there are the correct number left to accommodate the demand. Those who improve their visibility are more likely to be among the survivors. I presume you'd like to be in that group.

Second, I'm convinced that the best thing any business can do to strengthen its industry is to be a shining, thriving example in that industry. By having a strong business, you make diving and yourself look appealing at the same time, which is the best way to get new customers for yourself and new participants into the industry. Some ops just have to rise to the top in this. They'll draw more business, make more money, be able to spend more money on their shops and boats which will continue to attract additional new business, etc. Otherwise, all potential divers will see is run-down shops and barely maintained boats, because the owners won't have enough income to do better. That won't inspire many people to consider diving.

 

[Wookie]

Two things:

If "stealing" business from your colleagues is a concern, then you're stealing from them when you're on Facebook or here, or by having a sign on your shop, or by having your business name on your boat. SEO is about making yourself visible, not poaching. Making yourself visible is what any person in business seeks to do. There's nothing dishonest or underhanded about it. If the dive industry is destined to contract, the number of ops will have to contact until there are the correct number left to accommodate the demand. Those who improve their visibility are more likely to be among the survivors. I presume you'd like to be in that group.

Second, I'm convinced that the best thing any business can do to strengthen its industry is to be a shining, thriving example in that industry. By having a strong business, you make diving and yourself look appealing at the same time, which is the best way to get new customers for yourself and new participants into the industry. Some ops just have to rise to the top in this. They'll draw more business, make more money, be able to spend more money on their shops and boats which will continue to attract additional new business, etc. Otherwise, all potential divers will see is run-down shops and barely maintained boats, because the owners won't have enough income to do better. That won't inspire many people to consider diving.

Perhaps there are two (or more) parts to this puzzle. You and Howard and Julie seek to improve folks websites, and SEO and make them more visible to the diving public, so that when a diver says "Where shall I dive in Florida?", they might see my website, or Jupiter Dive Center, or maybe Conch Republic Divers, and can make an informed decision whether they want to see the finest, healthiest reefs in the United States, or Lemon Sharks, or Goliath Groupers, or have some awesome, yet easier diving on Snapper Ledge. That's great, but you're playing to a limited crowd that is already captured. That limited crowd is not enough to sustain the infrastructure that was developed 20-30 years ago, and we see a contraction in the industry. That's how industry works, the strongest survive (witness Kodak and Polaroid. Who would have predicted their demise in photography 30 years ago?) and the folks who can find other work/have deeper pockets survive this economy.

One response to the problem is to create more divers. I consider diving a winter sport, and compare it almost equally to skiing. Been to the mountain lately? Take a family of 4 for the weekend to any of the big hills for a week at the timeshare you bought in the 80's. Plan on dropping a cool 10 grand for that week for lift tickets, tune-ups, dinner, drinks, lessons, etc. In this era when the temps are warming up, the ski resorts are complaining that their season is 15 days shorter than it was 30 years ago, but you don't see skiing contracting. If anything, there are more skiers than ever. From the Mountain Rider's Alliance website:

Using the numbers from last year’s Kottke Report on skier visits, it is clear that there is a correlation between the two: the 1980 recession saw skier visits drop from 48.2 million in 1979-80 to 39.7 million in 80-81; the 81-83 recession saw a decrease from 50.7 million in 81-82 to 46.9 million in 82-83; the 90-91 recession saw a decrease from 50.0 million in 89-90 to 46.7 million in 90-91; the 2001-02 recession saw a decrease from 57.3 million in 2000-01 to 54.4 million in 2001-02 and our current “depression” saw a decrease from 60.5 million in 2007-08 to 57.3 million in 2008-2009 before recovering to last year’s 59.7 million. Being that skiing is such an expensive pastime, it is one of the first activities to be abandoned when money is tight.

Regarding age of Skiers, from the same report:

The average age of participants has risen steadily from 33.2 in 1997/1998 to 36.5 in 2006/07. Specifically, since 1997/98, the proportion of visitors aged 45 to 54 has increased from 14.0 % to 19.9 %; the proportion of visitors aged 55 to 64 has almost doubled from 4.6 % to 9.2 %; and the proportion of visitors aged 65 and older has also almost doubled, from 2.4% to 3.8%. Currently, skiers of the Baby Boom generation, and their parents, make up 33% of all skiers. Conversely, the proportion of visitors aged 35 to 44 has declined by 3%, visitors aged between 25 to 34 have declined by 5.6%, and visitors aged 15 to 24 have declined 3%. (Source: National Ski Areas Association: 2007/08 National Demographic Study; 2008)

So, it's safe to say that the age demographic of skiers is following the age demographic of divers, but we are not recovering divers following recession like skiing does. Why is that? Do we not have enough magazines? Do we not have enough divers to bootstrap the industry back to what it was 20 years ago? We hear of individual dive stores that are having a better year this year than last year, but the industry as a whole is suffering. Why is that?

I've said it before, folks are tired. There is very little new blood in the industry. My younger crew continually points out what an old curmudgeon I am, and I need to smile more. When I suggest they take over operation of the Spree, they look at me like I have 2 heads. Yes, running a dive boat is a lot of work, even when you keep it in good shape, there is still always something to do. The younger folks don't want to work that hard. I have all I can do to run the boat, keep up the maintenance, and attend the few trade shows I attend. Marketing? Who has time for that?

One answer is the Diving Equipment and Marketing Association. Howard is tired of DEMA bashing, but besides a trade show, what do they do for me? Additionally, the trade show has become less and less relevant over the past 5 years, but it's all we got. Unfortunately, it's run by the same old guus who ran it 20 years ago, and they would sure like to see diving return to what it was then. They don't have a plan either.

I'm not bashing anyone who wants to make their living building websites, or increasing a website's SEO, or any of the other things that have been discussed in this thread, but I see that as "marketing" to a crowd we already have attracted. To me, marketing should involve getting those who haven't considered diving as the other winter sport.

I wonder if DEMA has put together a presentation like the SIA did for diving instead of skiing... Skiing participation presentation, or if anyone really cares enough to gather the data.

 

[HowardE]

Marketing is a tiring process. You don't see the results of your efforts for years, and by then, many have just given up.

If you're not seeing results for years, that's too long. Most people could go out of business by then.

The beauty of internet marketing is that you can have instant results vs the way it was 30 years ago when effective marketing campaigns could take a long time to accomplish the same goals.
As a marketing company, we also study the trends to know what doesn't work anymore, even though it worked great two days ago. The lightning fast trends are here today and gone tomorrow, like a tweet on twitter...

I still think by focusing on SEO we're doing nothing but stealing divers from other shops/boats. I was told by an SEO person that I don't come up very high when searching for liveaboard dive boats

Focusing on SEO isn't the only answer for successful marketing, it's a part of the whole. A well rounded multi-media approach is really what rounds out the pie.

Also, focusing on the wrong keywords is a waste of effort. Do you want to spend money to hire an SEO professional to make you first for something that people don't search for very much? Why would someone do that? Successful SEO includes researching the right keywords to target, meaning the ones that people are actually searching for that relate to your business. Hopefully they'll figure out that more people search for "Live Aboard Dive Boat" than search for "Liveaboard Dive Boat" by 5 to 1 (yes, they are different). It also depends on where you live, since Google is totally location based now unless you specify otherwise (which hardly anyone does). Most of our clients came to us because they simply don't have enough hours in the day to stay on top of these things to continue to be effective.

To me, marketing should involve getting those who haven't considered diving as the other winter sport.

Sure... why not? Targeting people who like skiing isn't a bad idea. Maybe that's already being done?

Point is, we need more folks interested in diving, not to steal the folks already diving from each other.

This is very noble, but you are most likely in the minority whereas you're interested in helping everyone else as equally as helping yourself? My understanding of business is that the point is making money. If the other guy makes money too, well then that's great.

Sure we need more people diving, and as I stated earlier, we (Duck Diver) have employed techniques to help more than one of our clients attract people to their open water scuba classes. This is not using SEO, but using direct marketing (advertising). Now... they've been selling more classes. Is it because of the campaign? It's hard to say specifically, unless the instructors at the shop poll each of their students to ask how they heard of the class (which they never do).

And I appreciate your dedication to your clients' needs, H. Makes complete since to me. But, as Quixotesque (I kind of made that term up on the fly) as it sounds, I am hoping to save the scuba industry. I'll keep saying it, more divers makes for more business for us all. If I get to call them customers, I'm happy. But I'm also happy if you get them as well.

Of course more divers makes for more business for everyone, or more aptly, more divers makes for more business for the dive shops that have, maintain, and recruit their customer base.

The desire to save the industry is a noble quest, quite honorable, and deserves respect. Perhaps what we (meaning our company) do for our clients will save the industry as well? I'm just focusing on the immediate goals of my clients, because that's what we do. If we save the industry for everyone else, then woo hoo! That's a nice bonus, but not our primary goal.

---

I'm not defending DEMA with my "being tired of DEMA bashing". DEMA IMO is a trade show. That's all they do. They're worthless otherwise, and IMO, exist for the company to make money for itself. I'm just tired of the DEMA bashing, because where does it go? It certainly doesn't earn ScubaBoard any brownie points...

The show will be there. There most likely won't be anything coming along to replace it.