chs8084
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Not only opportunity for learning through assessment, but learning theory also strongly argues for distributing practice over time rather than massing it all together.
Making The Scuba Industry Better
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Not only opportunity for learning through assessment, but learning theory also strongly argues for distributing practice over time rather than massing it all together.
A possible Schedule could be
7am show up, dive site briefing and prepare gear
8am in water 30' for 60 minutes
9am out of water discuss dive, change tanks brief next dive
10am in water dive 2
11 am out of water discuss dive, secure gear
Break till 300 pm
3pm brief next dives and set up
330 pm back in the water for dive 3
430 out of water discuss dive brief next dive and switch gear
530 pm back in for last dive
630 out and de brief, break gear down.
Now this is just one possible scenrio and would give a student 4 hours of bottom time. Many other variables come into play like class size, enviroment, student preparedness, ect.
While I know that this is SB and this will be picked apart for a host of reasons it does work. The bottom line comes down to, again, is the student able to grasp the concepts without the overnight SI. My feeling is some would and some wouldn't so an instructor would have to make the determination if the student is completing the objectives, but that is how it is now.
I'm out as of this post, so I will let the bashing of the idea continue without me. Fresh ideas like this are great for us to think about and while some work some dont but it will continue to help form ideas that will move the industry along.
7am show up, dive site briefing and prepare gear
8am in water 30' for 60 minutes
9am out of water discuss dive, change tanks brief next dive
10am in water dive 2
11 am out of water discuss dive, secure gear
Break till 300 pm
3pm brief next dives and set up
330 pm back in the water for dive 3
430 out of water discuss dive brief next dive and switch gear
530 pm back in for last dive
630 out and de brief, break gear down.
Now this is just one possible scenrio and would give a student 4 hours of bottom time. Many other variables come into play like class size, enviroment, student preparedness, ect.
While I know that this is SB and this will be picked apart for a host of reasons it does work. The bottom line comes down to, again, is the student able to grasp the concepts without the overnight SI. My feeling is some would and some wouldn't so an instructor would have to make the determination if the student is completing the objectives, but that is how it is now.
I'm out as of this post, so I will let the bashing of the idea continue without me. Fresh ideas like this are great for us to think about and while some work some dont but it will continue to help form ideas that will move the industry along.
I love this thread. So much good stuff...and so much stuff that's just...where is the regurgitating smiley face. 
The original poster wrote that his students asked if they can do it all in one day. I get this question a lot too. The general public does not understand what scuba is, what certification is, what is necessary to learn, how long it takes, etc. At the trade shows, I've been asked if they can learn in an hour. Inside, I just shake my head and think I have a lot of work to do. But the problem solver/smartass in me says: Yes, you can *learn* in an hour.
AHA! The question is: *What* can you learn in an hour? An academic session, a confined water session, or a discover/try scuba.
Programs that do not issue certification to be used without a dive professional are not being used efficiently. And especially for the vacation divers out there (no we don't want to get rid of them, sillies) programs like NAUI/SSI Passport Diver and PADI Scuba Diver should be invaluable. Keep them with the pros until they're ready to earn that higher card. Train 'em well and get them diving with less training time. That'll develop the passion and conditioning to get them ready for what should be the more serious certification - the one with which momma duck doesn't lead.
For those who feel that $7 is not a cheap fill, or $500 for a OW cert isn't creating a loss leader, try creating an amortization schedule for dive center and you will see how cheap it really is.
The original poster wrote that his students asked if they can do it all in one day. I get this question a lot too. The general public does not understand what scuba is, what certification is, what is necessary to learn, how long it takes, etc. At the trade shows, I've been asked if they can learn in an hour. Inside, I just shake my head and think I have a lot of work to do. But the problem solver/smartass in me says: Yes, you can *learn* in an hour.
AHA! The question is: *What* can you learn in an hour? An academic session, a confined water session, or a discover/try scuba.
Programs that do not issue certification to be used without a dive professional are not being used efficiently. And especially for the vacation divers out there (no we don't want to get rid of them, sillies) programs like NAUI/SSI Passport Diver and PADI Scuba Diver should be invaluable. Keep them with the pros until they're ready to earn that higher card. Train 'em well and get them diving with less training time. That'll develop the passion and conditioning to get them ready for what should be the more serious certification - the one with which momma duck doesn't lead.
For those who feel that $7 is not a cheap fill, or $500 for a OW cert isn't creating a loss leader, try creating an amortization schedule for dive center and you will see how cheap it really is.
12 hour days in some areas may not be possible. And actually it's more than 12. One checkout site we have locally that allows us to start training early in the year is a 2 1/2 hour drive. Also dive 3 which is usually done on the 2nd day is often to 60 feet or so. May work out on tables but from a safe practices standpoint is stupid and sets a bad example. I like having the time to relax and go over issues. I also like having the option to do 6 dives for checkouts instead of 4. I need to do a skin snorkel dive in addition to the scuba dives. I also encourage my students to go and do another dive on their own after the final checkout if they have air and time. one day checkouts shoots that in the foot big time. And it just seems like rushing. If that's what the student wants they can find someone else to train them.
OP
Just for arguments sake... I still think the big point in what I've said here is that I only teach one or two students at a time. I believe that Instructors who do this regularly will side with me more than those who teach large groups.
I used to teach large groups... sometimes 10, 12 and even 14 students. If I was lucky, I'd have one divemaster - maybe two. As I read comments in this thread, it seems there are places where people are lucky enough to have several DM's to assist. I'm unaware of any shops in my area that can routinely provide a 1:1 or 2:1 ratio. 3/4:1 would be exceptional and 5/6:1 more the norm.
I have become accustomed to my 1:1 - 2:1 ratio by only offering private lessons. I think most instructors - event those dissenting from the 1 day checkout idea, would agree that private instruction allows for a much more intimate learning experience and students get so much more from it (assuming the Instructor is a good one.) In the pool, skills are learned in 1/10th the time it takes for an Instructor to complete 10 students. This makes simple, common sense. With 10 students, the Instructor has one student do the skill then moves on to the next... and by the time he has made his way around to 10 students... the first student has been twiddling their thumbs at the other end of the line.
The same time scenario plays out at the checkout dives when there are multiple students. It can take 10X longer to do 10 students than to do 1. Given this simple calculation, I can understand the arguments against doing everything in one day if checkouts contain only one Instructor and a multitude of students. You're right.
Consider the allowance of one day checkouts for private Instruction. Do any of you (my fellow Instructors) honestly believe you would be rushing a student or two (say a husband and wife) under any scenario where you completed their checkouts in one day? Now don't misunderstand my next sentence... I have completed my students checkouts the first day many times. They have completed all the required skills and done their first three dives. With that said, we always go back for the required second day just to play around (do a nice dive for dive number four.) We have to do this so that they can log their fourht checkout dive under the standards. This is the scenario I'm talking about. They rarely want to come back for a second day... They know they have met the requirements and feel comfortable with their skill levels... and I agree with them. The second day is just added expense and time away from them being able to do something else.
I'm not arguing this is right for everyone... because it is not. I'm saying it should be optional... because there are certainly siutations where it makes sense, does not cut anything from the training, the time involved with training or decrease the educational or enjoyment factors in any way.
I believe that if all students were taught in smaller class settings, retention in the industry would be higher. Have you ever considered this? How many people are convinced they don't like the sport 1/2 way into the first pool session? As they kneel on the bottom of the pool, shivering as they wait for 9 other people ( 2 or 3 of whom struggle) to clear thier masks. That's in an 80 degree pool. Now take the same group to the quarry in 50 degree water and replay the same scenario. How many more do you lose? Yes, we all know we certify them and we wonder where they go when we're done. You see, they decided they were done before you ever got them through the class.
Not because they lost their love for the sport... but because you gave them a miserable, long, drawn out experience that made them question - "Is this what diving really is?"
Some of you will say - "If they can't take it, then they shouldn't be diving anyway." That is not the right answer. If you're in the Northeast US or Pacific Northwest or anywhere else where the quarries are dark, dreary and cold... consider your retention rates if the days were not long and drawn out. It may seem I'm arguing against the one long day idea here... but just the opposite. The one day is not long and drawn out and when students see the light at the end of the tunnel on day one... they focus and get it done... they don't dread the thought of another long cold day tomorrow.
Just more food for thought...
I used to teach large groups... sometimes 10, 12 and even 14 students. If I was lucky, I'd have one divemaster - maybe two. As I read comments in this thread, it seems there are places where people are lucky enough to have several DM's to assist. I'm unaware of any shops in my area that can routinely provide a 1:1 or 2:1 ratio. 3/4:1 would be exceptional and 5/6:1 more the norm.
I have become accustomed to my 1:1 - 2:1 ratio by only offering private lessons. I think most instructors - event those dissenting from the 1 day checkout idea, would agree that private instruction allows for a much more intimate learning experience and students get so much more from it (assuming the Instructor is a good one.) In the pool, skills are learned in 1/10th the time it takes for an Instructor to complete 10 students. This makes simple, common sense. With 10 students, the Instructor has one student do the skill then moves on to the next... and by the time he has made his way around to 10 students... the first student has been twiddling their thumbs at the other end of the line.
The same time scenario plays out at the checkout dives when there are multiple students. It can take 10X longer to do 10 students than to do 1. Given this simple calculation, I can understand the arguments against doing everything in one day if checkouts contain only one Instructor and a multitude of students. You're right.
Consider the allowance of one day checkouts for private Instruction. Do any of you (my fellow Instructors) honestly believe you would be rushing a student or two (say a husband and wife) under any scenario where you completed their checkouts in one day? Now don't misunderstand my next sentence... I have completed my students checkouts the first day many times. They have completed all the required skills and done their first three dives. With that said, we always go back for the required second day just to play around (do a nice dive for dive number four.) We have to do this so that they can log their fourht checkout dive under the standards. This is the scenario I'm talking about. They rarely want to come back for a second day... They know they have met the requirements and feel comfortable with their skill levels... and I agree with them. The second day is just added expense and time away from them being able to do something else.
I'm not arguing this is right for everyone... because it is not. I'm saying it should be optional... because there are certainly siutations where it makes sense, does not cut anything from the training, the time involved with training or decrease the educational or enjoyment factors in any way.
I believe that if all students were taught in smaller class settings, retention in the industry would be higher. Have you ever considered this? How many people are convinced they don't like the sport 1/2 way into the first pool session? As they kneel on the bottom of the pool, shivering as they wait for 9 other people ( 2 or 3 of whom struggle) to clear thier masks. That's in an 80 degree pool. Now take the same group to the quarry in 50 degree water and replay the same scenario. How many more do you lose? Yes, we all know we certify them and we wonder where they go when we're done. You see, they decided they were done before you ever got them through the class.
Not because they lost their love for the sport... but because you gave them a miserable, long, drawn out experience that made them question - "Is this what diving really is?"
Some of you will say - "If they can't take it, then they shouldn't be diving anyway." That is not the right answer. If you're in the Northeast US or Pacific Northwest or anywhere else where the quarries are dark, dreary and cold... consider your retention rates if the days were not long and drawn out. It may seem I'm arguing against the one long day idea here... but just the opposite. The one day is not long and drawn out and when students see the light at the end of the tunnel on day one... they focus and get it done... they don't dread the thought of another long cold day tomorrow.
Just more food for thought...
theduckguru
Contributor
I have plenty of beefs with the dive agencies, but the 2 day training requirement is not one of them. People of different experiances and cognitive levels experiance things differently. Allowing the student brain time to resolve problems and formulate questions seems reasonable.
Ok one last one. Guys have some flexibility in thinking I stated the possible schedule, there are many variations. Yep it's 12 hours with lots of down and SI time. Shorten those up if you need too.
Offthewall mentioned smaller classes, smaller ratios of students. Many independents do this. Many are doing classes now that are 3 students or smaller.
No one is suggesting you can't still have a 2 day class for those that want to do 6 dives (Jim) or for those that have large classes. I agree there is no way a large student to instructor ratio that some of you are working with could make this work.
My open water was in Puget Sound, cold water in a wet suit. 2 days and one instructor with lots of students. We did lots of sitting on the beach while the instructor was out. This is even with my instructor requiring us to plan a dive for our final and dive our plan. My GF open water was with 2 other students in the warm water. First day she was done by noon, 2nd day she was done by noon. Both days were the afternoons were spent hanging out and driving to and from the dock instead of diving which all wished we could have done.
Again the OP is suggesting this as an option, not everyone doing it. I can see where it would work for some and not others.
Offthewall mentioned smaller classes, smaller ratios of students. Many independents do this. Many are doing classes now that are 3 students or smaller.
No one is suggesting you can't still have a 2 day class for those that want to do 6 dives (Jim) or for those that have large classes. I agree there is no way a large student to instructor ratio that some of you are working with could make this work.
My open water was in Puget Sound, cold water in a wet suit. 2 days and one instructor with lots of students. We did lots of sitting on the beach while the instructor was out. This is even with my instructor requiring us to plan a dive for our final and dive our plan. My GF open water was with 2 other students in the warm water. First day she was done by noon, 2nd day she was done by noon. Both days were the afternoons were spent hanging out and driving to and from the dock instead of diving which all wished we could have done.
Again the OP is suggesting this as an option, not everyone doing it. I can see where it would work for some and not others.
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Most of my classes are private or semi-private (1 or 2 students). In local conditions I would not even consider a four-dive daily schedule. Water temp right now is 48 degrees F ... warmest it got this year was 52. Since my agency requires five checkout dives, a two-day minimum schedule is a given. Adhering to that schedule means at least one day must have three dives. Our checkout schedule often runs more than two days ... for reasons I'll elaborate on.
Three dives in a wetsuit ... even during summer months ... taxes the average student's physical stamina. And that's not even to mention the mental loading. Once a student reaches a certain level of tired ... physically or mentally ... the day is over for us, regardless of how many dives we've accomplished.
Thermal units is another consideration. Ignoring the effects of cold water on the body, exiting the water can often be even worse ... particularly during the November - March time frame when cold air and wind can suck the heat out of your body faster than the water will. I use a pop-up shelter, propane heater, hot water and overcoats to minimize the chill ... but you simply cannot prevent it altogether. Students get cold ... and once they start to shiver, it's simply not appropriate to consider taking them back into the water.
Then there's the schedule. I did three dives with my student this past Friday ... we arrived at 8 AM and left the dive site around 3 PM. That's a seven-hour day. Daylight this time of year happens at around 7:30 ... dusk at around 4:30 ... trying to push another dive would have us pushing students into or out of the water at dawn or twilight ... not exactly a standards violation but too close for my comfort.
Overall, while you may believe that you can provide equal quality on a 4-dive schedule, I remain skeptical. Students are not divers. They're using muscles they're not used to using. They're working hard just to manage buoyancy control and remember how to do the required skills properly. And when you reach a certain level of tired, the ability to concentrate on what you're supposed to be doing, and to retain what you're learning, tails off significantly.
Sure it would be more convenient ... and less expensive ... to push more dives into a day to shorten the schedule. But will the learning experience be the same? Somehow I have a hard time believing that it would do anything but reduce the potential learning experience for my students ... and therefore even if it were allowed, I would not consider doing it ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Three dives in a wetsuit ... even during summer months ... taxes the average student's physical stamina. And that's not even to mention the mental loading. Once a student reaches a certain level of tired ... physically or mentally ... the day is over for us, regardless of how many dives we've accomplished.
Thermal units is another consideration. Ignoring the effects of cold water on the body, exiting the water can often be even worse ... particularly during the November - March time frame when cold air and wind can suck the heat out of your body faster than the water will. I use a pop-up shelter, propane heater, hot water and overcoats to minimize the chill ... but you simply cannot prevent it altogether. Students get cold ... and once they start to shiver, it's simply not appropriate to consider taking them back into the water.
Then there's the schedule. I did three dives with my student this past Friday ... we arrived at 8 AM and left the dive site around 3 PM. That's a seven-hour day. Daylight this time of year happens at around 7:30 ... dusk at around 4:30 ... trying to push another dive would have us pushing students into or out of the water at dawn or twilight ... not exactly a standards violation but too close for my comfort.
Overall, while you may believe that you can provide equal quality on a 4-dive schedule, I remain skeptical. Students are not divers. They're using muscles they're not used to using. They're working hard just to manage buoyancy control and remember how to do the required skills properly. And when you reach a certain level of tired, the ability to concentrate on what you're supposed to be doing, and to retain what you're learning, tails off significantly.
Sure it would be more convenient ... and less expensive ... to push more dives into a day to shorten the schedule. But will the learning experience be the same? Somehow I have a hard time believing that it would do anything but reduce the potential learning experience for my students ... and therefore even if it were allowed, I would not consider doing it ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
So, now you're saying that the schedule of:
08:00: Hit student in the solar plexus with weight belt and throw him to the sea with instructions of holding to the belt.
08:03: Deny certification to the surfacing student for being unwilling to follow simple instructions.
Might be improved?
08:00: Hit student in the solar plexus with weight belt and throw him to the sea with instructions of holding to the belt.
08:03: Deny certification to the surfacing student for being unwilling to follow simple instructions.
Might be improved?
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