I would not recommend to think of DiveMaster as almost-Instructor. Many many DM's in the Carribean have far fewer dives than I do. Most never go beyond being DM's, it's just a summer gig for them, shepherding tourists around. Think of it as "Dive Guide" in most cases and you will be about right.
Lost diver in Puget Sound
- Thread starter Rishidian
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1_T_Submariner
Contributor
Our Condolences, thoughts and payers to all involved.
ren_0373:
UnderSeaBumbleBee
Contributor
Very sorry for your loss. Sounds like he was a fine man, who even after he was on his way up went back down to save someone else's life.
If it is as it has been said in this thread that an instructor egged this on and took new divers on an AL80 down to 200 feet, I hope that the family will pursue this issue to keep this fool from taking others to their death. Perhaps, through some legal action Chad's family will be able to use this incident to save someone else's life. Sounds like Chad died saving his buddy's life who was on all fours. Maybe his family can go on living doing the same thing he did as his last act.
If it was just a simple dive gone bad, I would not suggest litigation. This was not a simple dive. Every diver is responsible for his own safety in the water. With that being said, an instructor has a responsibility to instruct new divers in how to dive safely. This was not a safe dive from the start.
Again very sorry to hear about such a sad loss.
If it is as it has been said in this thread that an instructor egged this on and took new divers on an AL80 down to 200 feet, I hope that the family will pursue this issue to keep this fool from taking others to their death. Perhaps, through some legal action Chad's family will be able to use this incident to save someone else's life. Sounds like Chad died saving his buddy's life who was on all fours. Maybe his family can go on living doing the same thing he did as his last act.
If it was just a simple dive gone bad, I would not suggest litigation. This was not a simple dive. Every diver is responsible for his own safety in the water. With that being said, an instructor has a responsibility to instruct new divers in how to dive safely. This was not a safe dive from the start.
Again very sorry to hear about such a sad loss.
lamont
Contributor
NWGratefulDiver:
Yeah, the poster I was responding to, though, was seeing evidence of an "epidemic" in the Puget Sound. I don't think its regional attitude. We do now have two similar incidents with a shared cause, though, and something really should get done to prevent a third.
lamont
Contributor
ren_0373:
Yeah, to add a little more on the dive plan:
At about 100 feet down on air (or oxygen/nitrogen mixture) the nitrogen starts becoming noticably narcotic. Short term memory loss can occur and divers will start checking and rechecking their gauges constantly. At 150 feet down on air divers will generally be noticably impaired and will probably feel 'high' like being stoned or drunk. At 200+ it starts to become incapacitating. The effects of nitrogen under pressure are biochemically just like nitrous oxide like at the dentists office or in whip cream canisters. If you want to simulate what its like down there, taking a bunch of nitrous oxide and then trying to function would precisely simulate it without needing to get wet. Most agencies these days teach using helium in breathing gas at depths like 200 feet, which reduces the narcosis. The general rule of thumb is to keep the level of narcosis at the level which is normally experienced at 100 feet on air.
So, they were crawling around on the bottom of puget sound under 200 feet of water, high out of their minds.
The fact that it was a single Al80 tank they were using is also crazy. Typically for 200 foot dives double-100s or double-80s start getting a bit small and most technical divers start to opt for double-130s at those depths (260 cu ft of gas total). They'll also usually carry another one or two 40 cu ft bottles of deco gas, but basically they should have had around 4x the gas they were taking down there. At that depth the gas in their tank would have likely only lasted around 15-20 minutes total. That doesn't give them much time to sort out whatever is wrong and still be able to surface. Normally a tech diver would be carrying about an hours worth of gas at that depth, and would have a much clearer head.
Not only that, but nobody involved in any of this was trained to dive technically, and the recreational limits which are taught by all the agencies are only to 130 feet of depth. There aren't any scuba police to prevent anyone from breaking those limits without getting additional training, but its taught that its not a smart thing to do for good reason....
Its like trying to hike up Everest in the same gear you backpack around the Cascades with...
And someone who apparently should have known better (not Chad I'm talking about) thought all this was a good idea.
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This whole incident really should be an eye-opener for the diving community in Puget Sound. Sometimes we forget that instructors vary immensely in knowledge, competence, and common sense....
I just don't understand how a NAUI instructor could possibly have rationalized this dive, regardless of the experience of the group. He, as a professional, was looked upon by the group as a competent leader, and he failed miserably and killed someone doing it. There's just no excuse....
This probably sounds harsh, but I think it's a call to really begin scrutinizing the training that occurs in our community. We should be proactive about recommending trustworthy instructors (like Bob and many others) and really attempt to minimize this cavalier attitude by instructors in our dark, cold waters. It just kills me to see something like this happen....
Sorry for the venting here.... As I said earlier in the thread, my heartfelt condolences to the family and friends of Chad.
I just don't understand how a NAUI instructor could possibly have rationalized this dive, regardless of the experience of the group. He, as a professional, was looked upon by the group as a competent leader, and he failed miserably and killed someone doing it. There's just no excuse....
This probably sounds harsh, but I think it's a call to really begin scrutinizing the training that occurs in our community. We should be proactive about recommending trustworthy instructors (like Bob and many others) and really attempt to minimize this cavalier attitude by instructors in our dark, cold waters. It just kills me to see something like this happen....
Sorry for the venting here.... As I said earlier in the thread, my heartfelt condolences to the family and friends of Chad.
On our trip to Indonesia, my husband queried a couple of the instructors who were on the trip about when in the PADI sequence gas management is taught.
The answer is that it's not. It's not NECESSARY for recreational divers. It's enough to say, "Be back on the boat with 500 psi."
That's true, as long as the divers you're talking about are resort divers, doing nothing other than known profiles while escorted by professionals. And even then, you read stories from the Caribbean DMs about the number of OOA divers they've had to escort to the surface.
It is absolutely and utterly untrue when it comes to independent divers operating in an area like ours, where very deep places are easily reached from shore.
I've dabbled in a lot of sort of "advanced recreational" training. Every bit of it has deliberately reinforced my respect for more aggressive diving, whether it's deeper or overheads or anything else that goes beyond simple recreational diving. Once you get beyond the OW/AOW sequence, classes ALL seem to be very careful to make you aware of risks and risk mitigation. The problem is that so few people ever take those classes.
Finally, on the subject of instructors, we criticized one of the people on our Asian trip for not having behaved as we thought a professional and a role model should have. His answer was that when he wasn't instructing, he wasn't a role model. Sounds as though this instructor had the same attitude. I find it reprehensible in both cases.
The answer is that it's not. It's not NECESSARY for recreational divers. It's enough to say, "Be back on the boat with 500 psi."
That's true, as long as the divers you're talking about are resort divers, doing nothing other than known profiles while escorted by professionals. And even then, you read stories from the Caribbean DMs about the number of OOA divers they've had to escort to the surface.
It is absolutely and utterly untrue when it comes to independent divers operating in an area like ours, where very deep places are easily reached from shore.
I've dabbled in a lot of sort of "advanced recreational" training. Every bit of it has deliberately reinforced my respect for more aggressive diving, whether it's deeper or overheads or anything else that goes beyond simple recreational diving. Once you get beyond the OW/AOW sequence, classes ALL seem to be very careful to make you aware of risks and risk mitigation. The problem is that so few people ever take those classes.
Finally, on the subject of instructors, we criticized one of the people on our Asian trip for not having behaved as we thought a professional and a role model should have. His answer was that when he wasn't instructing, he wasn't a role model. Sounds as though this instructor had the same attitude. I find it reprehensible in both cases.
The TOS here make it difficult to be directly negative about particular instructors. And its hard to know who's recommending and saying positive things on that end (i.e does a former student really know if they got good training?).
Not that this can't spur us to be more forward about good and bad instructors, but it does present complications.
I agree that in this case litigation is warranted, if for no other reason than to get the ringleader out of a position of authority.
Not that this can't spur us to be more forward about good and bad instructors, but it does present complications.
I agree that in this case litigation is warranted, if for no other reason than to get the ringleader out of a position of authority.
redrover
Guest
I wanted to commend your reception of whats been said here. Many people, even with diving experience would take the stupid remarks as a personal slam to someone they only knew as good. Perhaps you know this, there is value vs disrespect, but I want to also explain what these comments or posts do for me, a new diver learning.ren_0373:
An example is probably one of the first stories I explored; about diving to hundreds of feet deep. At that time all I really knew was I was not supposed to, very little understanding of the reason why and absolutely no concept of how it can be done. It was reading comments such as 200 feet on an AL80. If true that is just crazy that set me to investigating what all the noise was about. The result is Ive learned far more more of what I didnt know I didnt know.
Sincere condolences to you and all who are mourning and grateful for sharing any information relating to the incident. As best as I can tell there is a very fine line between error and fatal error in diving and the more I know of what lead to the fatal ones is much appreciated.
UnderSeaBumbleBee
Contributor
I just called NAUI head quarters and they have suspended this guy that was the instructor on this fateful dive. I asked the gentleman if I could share this info and he said it was fine as it is a matter of public record. I pointed him to SB, he said as a general rule they do not post on boards but that he would check out the thread.
I really hope Chad's family will go after this "instructor." As a new diver you are taught to follow the example of the "dive professional"" As you learn and grow more as a diver you learn this might not be a good idea.
As a fairly new diver, myself, I got into a lot of trouble trusting a person who is a DM candidate and worked for a local shop. I thought, hey this person is safe and won't get me in trouble because they are my buddy and are looking out for me. If you want to read about my experience, you can do so at this link with the topic title 106' in trouble, narked, buddies wave bye bye after trouble and up signs. http://www.singledivers.com/surfaceinterval/index.php?showtopic=10755 It was my very bad decision to do the dive and go on a dive beyond my training. I should not have gone in the first place. I can tell you that I would never have thought of doing such a dive if the person from the dive shop had not assured that it is was no big deal. I trusted them as a more experienced diver and soon to be DM. After all, I was told when you do your AOW all they do is send along an instructor with you. Again, my fault for doing the dive in the first place. With that being said the other person should bare some responsibility for giving out bad and potentially fatal information. I won't ever dive with those folks again and have told them so and why I won't dive with them.
I really hope Chad's family will go after this "instructor." As a new diver you are taught to follow the example of the "dive professional"" As you learn and grow more as a diver you learn this might not be a good idea.
As a fairly new diver, myself, I got into a lot of trouble trusting a person who is a DM candidate and worked for a local shop. I thought, hey this person is safe and won't get me in trouble because they are my buddy and are looking out for me. If you want to read about my experience, you can do so at this link with the topic title 106' in trouble, narked, buddies wave bye bye after trouble and up signs. http://www.singledivers.com/surfaceinterval/index.php?showtopic=10755 It was my very bad decision to do the dive and go on a dive beyond my training. I should not have gone in the first place. I can tell you that I would never have thought of doing such a dive if the person from the dive shop had not assured that it is was no big deal. I trusted them as a more experienced diver and soon to be DM. After all, I was told when you do your AOW all they do is send along an instructor with you. Again, my fault for doing the dive in the first place. With that being said the other person should bare some responsibility for giving out bad and potentially fatal information. I won't ever dive with those folks again and have told them so and why I won't dive with them.
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