Lost diver in Puget Sound
- Thread starter Rishidian
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ren_0373:
Yes, think of a Dive Master as an Instructor in training. They have a lot of the same training, many have insurance to teach, but they're not quite to the Instructor level. Dive Master's will often lead dives on dive charters or at resorts.
There's more in the details that others may be able to explain, but that's the basic difference.
In this situation, both would have known that a 200' dive on air using al80 single tanks was a bad idea.
I'm sorry for your loss.
~ Jason
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Yes, there is a difference. And the person who accompanied Chad on this dive was an instructor ... one who I hope has his certification to instruct permanently revoked.ren_0373:
He should've been trying to stop these guys ... not helping them.
I'm sorry to say it, because I knew Chad and liked him ... but there IS no sense to what happened. Chad looked up to and emulated someone he trusted ... as young men will with older, more experienced men who do bold things. And that trust cost him his life.
This dive was an incredibly stupid thing to do. I'm sorry if that sounds blunt ... you cannot know how much it hurts to say it. But I don't EVER want to hear about someone else losing their life for something like this. Chad may not have understood the risks he was taking ... but the instructor certainly did.
I am very, VERY sorry for your loss. The whole local dive community mourns ... Chad loved diving. He was well known and well liked.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
dsteding
Contributor
ren_0373:
Not a stupid question at all. There is a difference, maybe the best thing for you to do is to read up on some of the agency requirements and what the qualifications mean. For some background, training "agencies" train and certify people to dive, and also train and certify people to work as dive professionals. Dive Masters ("DM"s) and instructors are both categories of dive professionals.
Take a look at NAUI's website:
www.naui.org
Click on "Education" and then "Leadership courses". The descriptions are there.
Also see PADI's website:
www.padi.com
Click on their "teach diving" link for information on the same.
I can only imagine how traumatic this must be for you and Chad's other friends and his family, it has hit the dive community here in Seattle hard, and most of us didn't even know him. It is thin solace, but it sounds like he was heroic in saving the other diver.
My sincere condolences, you all are in my prayers.
-Doug
ren_0373,
To add a bit more to help you understand the whole 200' thing, here are my thoughts. The below is just my opinion on what I've read on this site.
1) Recreational limits usually end at 130' max depth for 5 minutes total time on the bottom. To go beyond this depth and stay longer than 5 minutes, a diver will be required to do a mandatory deco stop.
As an example, a 150' dive, average depth, for 20 minutes will require upwards of 20 minutes of decompression spread out over depths between 70' and 10'. We'll use gas with a higher percentage of oxygen (50%) to help accelerate the decompression, otherwise, on air the decompression would be closer to 40 minutes.
I state this to show the level of seriousness, training, and experience one should have when diving below 130' for more than 5 minutes.
2) Air has a mix of Nitrogen and Oxygen that affect our bodies in different ways. As you go deeper the pressure surrounding you compresses these gasses. Nitrogen will cause what we call narcosis, and is often described as being drunk in that your motor skills slow down. At 200' the level of narcosis can be so great that it affects your vision, and your ability to make decisions.
The example of Steve on all fours sitting on the bottom is most likely the result of the narcosis, and I have heard other stories of people dancing on the bottom without a clue to how much gas they have left. There's a strong possibility that Steve would have stayed on the bottom, breathed his tanks down, and drowned if Chad hadn't gone back down to get him.
Technical divers will often put Helium in their gas mix to offset narcosis from the Nitrogen. A typical gas mix for a 200' dive might be 18% Oxygen, 45% Helium, and 37% Nitrogen. This mix at 200' would have the same level of narcosis as someone diving air at 95'.
3) An al80 has 77 cft. of gas when filled to 3000 psi, which is the standard operating pressure of this tank. A normal person will breath approximately 0.75 cft gas per minute while on the surface. The same person would breath approximately 5.25 cft of gas at 200'. 5 minutes at 200' (not to mention the travel time to get there) would consume 26.25 cft of gas.
If a person experiences currents, cold water, fear / anxiety from the darkness (narcosis), or an emergency, then their consumption rate will increase to 1 cft or more on the surface. At 200', this would translate into 7 cft. per minute, or 35 cft every 5 minutes. If your buddy runs out of gas or experiences a failure, then the emergency consumption rate doubles since 2 people will be breathing off of the same tank. That means that 5 minutes at 200' with 2 people on the same tank would consume approximately 70 cft of gas.
That's pretty much all the gas they would have in a single al80, and is the main reason I would take 200 cft of gas along with 2 additional bottles filled with deco gas. My total gas supply for a dive like this would approach 270 cft of gas, and that's a lot more than the 77 cft of gas each of them had.
I'm not sure if this helps. They're rather simplified descriptions of some major risks involved in this type of diving.
As Bob mentioned, do you really think Chad would have done the dive if he knew the risks involved?
The instructor definitely knew the risks involved, and had a chance to stop the dive before it went horribly wrong.
Once again, this is just my opinion from what I've read about the dive on this site.
~ Jason
To add a bit more to help you understand the whole 200' thing, here are my thoughts. The below is just my opinion on what I've read on this site.
1) Recreational limits usually end at 130' max depth for 5 minutes total time on the bottom. To go beyond this depth and stay longer than 5 minutes, a diver will be required to do a mandatory deco stop.
As an example, a 150' dive, average depth, for 20 minutes will require upwards of 20 minutes of decompression spread out over depths between 70' and 10'. We'll use gas with a higher percentage of oxygen (50%) to help accelerate the decompression, otherwise, on air the decompression would be closer to 40 minutes.
I state this to show the level of seriousness, training, and experience one should have when diving below 130' for more than 5 minutes.
2) Air has a mix of Nitrogen and Oxygen that affect our bodies in different ways. As you go deeper the pressure surrounding you compresses these gasses. Nitrogen will cause what we call narcosis, and is often described as being drunk in that your motor skills slow down. At 200' the level of narcosis can be so great that it affects your vision, and your ability to make decisions.
The example of Steve on all fours sitting on the bottom is most likely the result of the narcosis, and I have heard other stories of people dancing on the bottom without a clue to how much gas they have left. There's a strong possibility that Steve would have stayed on the bottom, breathed his tanks down, and drowned if Chad hadn't gone back down to get him.
Technical divers will often put Helium in their gas mix to offset narcosis from the Nitrogen. A typical gas mix for a 200' dive might be 18% Oxygen, 45% Helium, and 37% Nitrogen. This mix at 200' would have the same level of narcosis as someone diving air at 95'.
3) An al80 has 77 cft. of gas when filled to 3000 psi, which is the standard operating pressure of this tank. A normal person will breath approximately 0.75 cft gas per minute while on the surface. The same person would breath approximately 5.25 cft of gas at 200'. 5 minutes at 200' (not to mention the travel time to get there) would consume 26.25 cft of gas.
If a person experiences currents, cold water, fear / anxiety from the darkness (narcosis), or an emergency, then their consumption rate will increase to 1 cft or more on the surface. At 200', this would translate into 7 cft. per minute, or 35 cft every 5 minutes. If your buddy runs out of gas or experiences a failure, then the emergency consumption rate doubles since 2 people will be breathing off of the same tank. That means that 5 minutes at 200' with 2 people on the same tank would consume approximately 70 cft of gas.
That's pretty much all the gas they would have in a single al80, and is the main reason I would take 200 cft of gas along with 2 additional bottles filled with deco gas. My total gas supply for a dive like this would approach 270 cft of gas, and that's a lot more than the 77 cft of gas each of them had.
I'm not sure if this helps. They're rather simplified descriptions of some major risks involved in this type of diving.
As Bob mentioned, do you really think Chad would have done the dive if he knew the risks involved?
The instructor definitely knew the risks involved, and had a chance to stop the dive before it went horribly wrong.
Once again, this is just my opinion from what I've read about the dive on this site.
~ Jason
My boyfriend is standing here reading this with me, thank you so much for explaining something we have no idea about. We truly appreciate it (ren_0373)
All this information is very helpful, and is being passed along to friends of Chad's who are desperately trying to make sense of this. All I can say is thank you, and tell your friends you love them.
Ryan.
All this information is very helpful, and is being passed along to friends of Chad's who are desperately trying to make sense of this. All I can say is thank you, and tell your friends you love them.
Ryan.
Truly sorry for the loss of your friend.
My Prayers go out to all friend's and family.
My Prayers go out to all friend's and family.
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