Losing Nemo...

[agilis]

Are you really so fatuous and bombastic as to imagine that I believe humans to be at the top of some sort of evolutionary construct? I did say that some animals had less-evolved cognitive function, and that semi-vegitarians like me will for that reason eat things like fish. I eat plants for similar reasons, or some insects, but would not eat most terrestrial creatures. Flys are ok, as are grubs, worms, Bermudans, and moth larvae. To conclude that I have some sense of human superiority has no foundation in anything I have written, and, in fact, contradicts most of what I have said. I believe that YOU have a notion of human supeiority when you write about harvesting species in a sustainable fashion after they have lived a life in the wild.Where did you come up with this idiocy? Would you be comfortable with me harvesting you and your mom, to feed myself and my fish?

Seriously, I don't think commited Vegans eat fish. More importantly, serious consevationists know that the real threat to the natural world comes from too many people. Their waste products, land requirements, and sheer mass have, directly and indirectly, robbed most terrestial species and a growing number of aquatic species of their homes.

All problems for non-humans go back ultimately to the fact that there are too many people. Global warming does. The loss of reefs does. The destruction of habitat does.What are you doing about it? Do you campaign for ZPG, despite the objections of religious fascists? I do. Have you been voluntary sterilized as an environmental statement? I have, and I loose no opportunity to encourage others to do the same. I refuse to belong to organizations that permit members to have more than 2 children. 6 billion is about 4 billion too many.

Don't lecture me about keeping a few pampered fish, not for "useful" purposes, but because I want to enjoy an intimate association with some of the creatures that my fellow humans are extirpating from the planet, so they can have 5 kids and an SUV. Save the environment, not some individual specimen. The best way of saving the environment is to dissappear. The second best way is to make sure you do no replicate yourself. The concept of "useful" always comes back to what is useful to humans humans. In truth, I would most prefer a world devoid of humans. I am old enough to remember a world filled with wild wonder. I have watched it slowly dissappear, with each lovely corner of the planet filling up with people. I have seen clean seas turn murky,reefs die, seagrass bays filled in, forests become housing and malls, open places occupied by humans, and everything slowly exterminated to feed or make room for people. I am glad that I am old enough to have seen the world and the seas that once were, and inexpressably sad to witness their loss. All environmantal programs are worthless unless we reduce our numbers. Everything else is a cruel fraud, a comforting illusion while the natural world slowly dissappears under the relentless pounding of human numbers.

 

[bermudaskink]

End of the day and I logged on here to amuse myself.

I can see you're all going for it with your own little moral justifications for keeping animals in prisons.

Agillis BTW

It's "Bermudian".....



so come on then bite me!

ut:

Also please READ what I said about me not being a vegan anymore. I didn't claim that vegans ate fish. You eat fish yourself and then you tell me that catching them in a sustainable way is an idiotic suggestion? What are you talking about? I apologise if I took what you wrote to mean that you did feel that we as humans are at the "top". Some people do think like that and that is how I interpreted what you wrote. My mistake!

You assume that my argument against animals in cages is my only concern for the earth. You couldn't be further from the truth. I have vowed never to have children but to adopt. I try to talk to many others about the serious threat to our planet from human over population. But that does not mean just because there are more important issues to be concerned about and act upon (and trust me I am, and I do!) that I can't argue with you on the ethics of keeping fish in tanks. I love to discuss ethics. It is a natural way to progress one's formations of opinions. I don't expect to suddenly convince you over to may way thinking but we both have open minds and I wanted you to justify your fish keeping hobby. If you feel I am forcing my morals on you then ditto! Just by expressing our opinions one can be accused of forcing morals on others. I am expressing that I feel what you do with your fish is wrong. You are telling me it is right. It's a fair argument. You just don't seem to like being told that what you do might be wrong.

However - aside from your fish keeping hobby I think your ideas on the state of the world are wonderful (you should read my posts on another thread if you are interested in more of my environmental opinions (see - "bad news for coral lovers" in this forum - though I am sure you will find something to disagree with! ) and agree with you on mostly everything you said in your last post. I just disagree that you have the right to commune with nature while you stick it in a prison. That's all.

Scotty - cool that you have donated hundreds of dollars and I apologise to you for my assumptions. If that dolphin is in the middle of being rehabilitated before being released back to the wild I really am sorry for the assumption I made there, I really am! I am just too used to seeing those types of pictures.

I am interested to know how is research into beluga whale reproduction really going to help their plight against major shipping lanes, oil and other forms of pollution and getting wrapped up in fishing gear?

Bottom line is you still keep fish in prisons for no good reason and just because you do other things that are good in your opinion doesn't mean that it's OK. I am done talking about it. :mgun:

 

[bermudaskink]

Barcardi Spice - I wasn't referencing your posts in any of my debate. You points are good ones but not ones with which I argue with. So please don't be offended.

Agilis. I am intrigued. When did you get the impression that I had a Y chromasome?

 

[agilis]

I was not aware that I had made any gender references, let alone those that suggest a male identity. If I did, and I'm sure you are correct, it was probably the typically male trait of pig-headed conviction and stubborn insistence in support of idiotic notions. It is a typical male trait to insist in framing the terms of a discussion in highly preducial terms , terms that reflect a bias. When you insist on discussing things in terms of imprisoning fish, creating glass prisons, etc.,you establish a close-minded dogmatic interpetation that admits no other perspective. saying 'I don't care what rationalizationa you come up with for keeping fish imprisoned in glass boxes" establishes you as a classic case of " I've made up my mind. Don't confuse things with facts". This, sadly, is a trait more often associated with men than with women, who tend to be more pig-headed as a group. If you are a female, you are an exception, an instance of a female who ignores the weakneses of her own argument, and concentrates only on those issues that are vulnerable to criticism. The use of non-argument, like pointing out that it is Bermudian, not Bermudan, for example. The focus on those who seek to attach some utilitarian rationale for their fishkeeping hobby, is another of your favorites. You ignore the reality that eating a fish is no different biologically than keeping it in an aquarium. In each case, it is removed from the genetic pool. You come up with frivolous aesthetic explanations that rely on anthropomorphicizing fish feelings into Disnyesque concepts of freedom. You remind me of Bush talking about liberty, and I mean that in the worst possible sense. Fish, especially smaller reef fish, seek to escape danger, and find comfortable places to live. I've watched angels spend years on one coral head not much larger than my tank.

You also ignore my comments about the extreme overpopulation of the planet, and its ultimate cause for all of the pollution and environmental degradation that exists. Not just here in the Americas. Look at what has happened in China. The Chinese market has virtually wiped out the reptiles and mammals of south asia. I have seen Florida and much of the caribbean despoiled: by human growth.

You would rather discuss glass prisons and misspelling. Sounds to me like a guy, or a woman with the same level of arrogance and deceit. It appears to me that you are imprisoned in some sort of dogmatic belief system. It does not seem to bother you a bit.

 

[ScottyK]

bermudaskink once bubbled...


I am interested to know how is research into beluga whale reproduction really going to help their plight against major shipping lanes, oil and other forms of pollution and getting wrapped up in fishing gear?

Sigh.......

I am not going to answer this question because I can tell from the way you worded it that you've already made up your mind about any answer I might give.

I am also not going to continue this debate any further because it's not being held on a fair playing field. While I feel constrained to offer facts to back up what I am saying, you don't seem to hold yourself to that level, and haven't presented a single real fact to back up any of your opinions. Your argument seems to boil down to "this is how I feel about it, so it must be right".

I will however, for the sake of accuracy, correct a statement you made that some may find misleading. None of the animals in my profile would be considered candidates for release, and I didn't mean to imply that any of those particular ones would be.

You can't release an animal that has been acclimated to humans, or used to being fed by them. When you work with rehab animals it's important to keep the contact as limited as possible. Holding tanks where I volunteered all had at least one wall that was not clear. We tossed the food over the wall so the animals wouldn't see that people were feeding them. To help the vets do checkups on the seals, we needed to wear heavy protective equipment and risked getting seriously injured in order to not tame the animals.

If there is such an agency in Bermuda, I would encourage you to do some volunteer work also. You'd probably find it rewarding.

I would now much appreciate being able to resume the aquarium discussion we were having without being attacked anymore.

Scott

 

[BacardiSpice]

Well said, Scotty and Agilis. I find it remarkable that someone would launch in here with overblown rhetoric, foisting their subjective opinions on others with the acknowledgement that they know nothing about the aquarium trade, use provocative, self-satisfied and smug self-justification without knowing anything about those she harrangued, and then presumes to adopt an affectedly insouciant air with a highly mannered 'yawn' and references to amusing herself.

No responsible environmentalist I've ever worked with would adopt these tactics. It's this sort of conduct that creates the sort of obstacles I've had to deal with as part of the conservation movement - the image of arrogance, condescenion, disrespect and sheer bloody rudeness that, for so many, constitute the environmental movement, but in fact is only representative of a minority fringe element.

I reject wholeheartedly this elitist notion that the masses are not worthy or capable of animal husbandry of some species that are suitable for the home habitats that private individuals create for them, and that only large public aquariums should keep marine animals. While I have argued - and continue to argue - that all animals are by no means suitable for captivity (and that goes for large aqauriums as well), there are some marine creatues that take to home and public aquariums like...well...the proverbial duck to water. There have always been animals that adapt well to domestication, and some of these are fish. As far as I'm concerned, the more people who come to know, understand and love the marine habitat - whether that be through public aquariums, books, films or the replication of their own marine habitat in their own home - the better.

Joe Brown, who lives in his little two up - two down in North London and who has neither the money nor the ability to fly off to the Red Sea for diving, and who has been able to manage more than a visit to the Sealife Aquarium at Scarborough on his hols, can develop a passionate interest in the sea from keeping a few blennys and a Royal Gamma in a nice set up. From just keeping fish, he moves on to become an aquarist...and through learning about their behaviour and habitat, his consiousness about the challenges facing the marine environment expands. A new conservationist is born!

One of the most ardent animal liberationists I've ever known was a vet who worked in Singapore (and yes, I mean 'animal libber' as well as 'environmentalist' - the two are not always synonymous). I came to know and admire him through our work together on rehabilitating sick and injured birds, some of which were rare and endangered. In the past, he had belonged to some fairly radical Animal Liberation groups in Australia, parting ways with them only when their tactics veered onto the wrong side of the law. His favourite hobby? He had a gorgeous marine fishtank.

I'll stick with the position of responsible conservation bodies like the WWF, who are working with the aquarium trade to ensure that everyone wins out of this. Like so many other issues facing the conservation movement, we need to work at a solution whereby everybody wins. If managed correctly - and if we work constructively together - marine aquarists can continue with their passion; there can be a boost for the economies of some of the most economically disempowered countries in the world, especially on a local, grass roots level; and there is a greater inducement to manage reefs and stocks.

 

[Kettle]

That plenum idea sounds alright, might set it up in the refugium. Its amazing how quickly those pods multiply, hopefully with more room soon I will be able to harvest them for the main tank, that'd be great. Anyway, off to feed my happly little pets and then have a steak sandwich.

 

[BacardiSpice]

This question is going to mark me out as a complete dilettante (as if that hadn't already been established!), but Scott (or anyone else), how difficult is it to maintain a deep bed of live sand? Do you leave it entirely to diggers and stirrers (and which ones?) to keep it from developing anaerobic spots, or is it just a non-issue in a well set-up tank with good water movement and a good balance of stocking?

Even with a deeply planted tank I 'vacummed' the substrata in my freshwater tanks whenever I did the weekly or fortnightly water changes, but I understand from what you're saying that the idea with a marine tank is to disturb it as little as possible. Presumably with a balanced tank with circulation there is no problem with keeping the substrata 'live'?

 

[Kettle]

From what I have read (and this is probably very simplicated) you can either choose to have a live sand bed or a a not so live sand bed. With a live sand bed you would let it colonize with pods and let them work the sand bed. The other option is having something like a sand sifting goby. With a goby, you will not have anything living in the sand bed. I have a goby in my tank at the moment, does a great job of keeping the sand clean, but does clean up and critters in the and too. This is part of the reason I want my DSB in the refugium

 

[BacardiSpice]

LoL! I love the idea of having a goby or blenny or two, Kettle - they're so chokkas with character that I'd pick even a drabber goby or blenny over a more colourful fish. What sort of goby is your little chap cleaning up the copopods? 'Not so live sand' would still have the micro-organisms in it, even though the goby has cleaned up the macro-organisms, would it?