Losing Nemo...

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I'm reading about all your system setups with fascination - there's a good few years of marine tank experience represented in this thread! The three of you have been fishkeeping longer than I've been alive.

I started with basic set ups in Singapore, that mecca of massive breeding ponds and clearing house for fish exporting, when I was 11-14. Moving around so much during my life has meant that there has only been once or twice when I had a decent enough stretch in the one country that I was able to seriously get into it. My family has kept one tank going during the 4 1/2 years I've been away from home, although there have been one or two casualities.

Interesting that you mention lateral line erosion as a problem with hepatus tangs, Agilis. I remember seeing a photo of a sailfin tang (Zebrasoma desjardini) with an horrifically advanced case. Are tangs and surgeonfish particularly prone to lateral line erosion?

Scott, I don't know if this is veering too far off-topic but...what's a 'miracle mud system'? Berlin system is a familiar concept. Live rock, live sand, protein skimmers, surge systems, full spectrum lighting, etc I've at least heard of...but miracle mud? Off to google on that one!
 
Hello BacardiSpice,

In answer to the question you asked, yes, there is no question that some species are more likely to develop erosion problems. Many tangs and some anglefishes are definitely in that category. As far as I know, the precise causes are not clearly understood, and may vary among species, or be the result of multiple factors; water quality and nutrition are most often cited. There are bacterial links as well, but these may be secondary infections, not the primary cause.

There have been claims of reversal of erosion through nutritional or water quality improvements, or both. I do know that correctly nourished fishes kept in high quality conditions are much less likely to develop the condition.

In answer to a question you did not ask me, Miracle Mud is a product that simply packages a filtration technique that has been around for a long, long time. A smaller container or refugia tank is connected to the main aquarium system. This smaller or mini-tank has a thick bed of nutrient rich 'mud'. Planted in this mud is Caulerpa algae, which absorbs lots of metabolic byproducts, nitrates, etc. This algae is harvested periodically. The manufacturer of the Miracle Mud little plastic hang on tank, with its integrated lighting system and mud supply claims that his mud is particularly effective. The biggest advantage for many users is that M.M. is a pre-packaged all inclusive unit. If you are reasonably handy with aquatic plumbing, you can make your own system better and cheaper. A rich semi-organic substrate and proper lighting over the little mini-refugia is all you need. Some systems have the lighting ove these algae filters on the opposite cycle from the main tank lights: on at "night" and off during the day, to smooth out pH variations, but that's another topic.
 
Sorry to get off on the wrong foot, there are a lot of "experts" in the marine aquarium hobby who like to give out bad advice, as I'm sure you are aware. I have been keeping marines for a little while now, quite succesfully I believe. Just setting up my second tank at the moment, a 4x2x2. This will be a soft coral tank. I am using on my current setup a protein skimmer and refugium for filtration and am very happy with this and will use the same for the next tank. What type of filtration do you use on your tanks?
 
Cheers for those clear responses on both scores, Agilis! I did a quick google last night on 'miracle mud' and turned up some manufacturer's literature on the subject, and am pleased to have an aquarists POV on the matter.

I'd also be interested in the responses to Kettle's query re prefered tank set ups (although I realise this is a subject with great diversity of personal opinion!). What have you found to be most successful?
 
Hello fellow aquarists,

There is no single filtration or design method that I have found to be overwhelmingly superior in all situations, and every marine aquarium technical design has its limitations and drawbacks. One reason for the continual parade of new miracle products. or new ground-breaking techniques, is the desire to create new markets, to sell products, to generate revenue for the aquarium industry. This is not a bad thing, because without the industry, there would be few things available to the aquarist, including fish and the aquariums themselves. I am not dismissing all of the technology, becase some of it has been truly revolutionary. Advances in lighting for reef tanks is a good example. Even in areas where the technology has been around for decades, the development of products using these technologies that are available to the average consumer has benefitted all of us.

On the other hand, it's important to understand that there are very few really new things around, and that a lot of what you read is marketing strategy. Algae filtration systems have been used for at least a century. Wet-dry "bio-ball" filtration, protein skimming, foam fractionation, etc., are half-century old techniques that have some of their origins in sewage treatment technology. A lot of aquarium technology is borrowed or adapted from other fields, or has been around for a long time. I remember when the amonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle was touted in the aquarium literature as a great breakthrough. The basic science had been there for a long time, and had been used in waste water treatment for decades. It took a few insightful people to apply the technology to aquariums, since there is no significant scientific establishment devoted to improving aquarium technology. Most if what is available is adaptation, and packaging in formats that are easily consumer usable and marketed to the aquarium trade.

My point is that one should be cautious, perhaps even skeptical, when reading enthusiastic articles in any hobbiest magazine about new "revolutionary" methods, super products, etc. A lot of stuff in jars and bottles is sold by sharpies who know that inept or inexperienced aquarists are vulnerable to simplistic explanations for their aquarium problems.

" Are your fish lethargic, loosing their color, getting sick, dying? Just put this miracle trace element restorer, or vitamin booster, or special miracle formula in your tank, and voila! They will look as good as they do in the tanks of experienced aquarists!"

Or, it may be suggested, using one or another Joubert, live sand, refugia, super sand, trace element sludge, space-age filtration system will make all the difference. It is not so. A lightly populated fish-only tank with good water circulation, and regular water changes, can flourish with a simple undergravel filter, proper feeding, and the avoidance of additives, chemicals, accidental poisoning or stressors due to foolish meddling, or the introduction of diseased , incompatable, or inappropriate fish.

I like wet-dry filters with powerful pumps and strong water movement for fish-only tanks. Protein skimmers of HIGH QUALITY , a bit smaller than manufacturers recommendations, completes the fish-only system. I use a large water capacity undertank container for the wet-dry filter. A 55 gal tank sits under my 180 gal fish tand, and houses within it the 15 gallon capacity bio-ball container. An Iwaki 40 provides circulation, and two powerheads that cycle on and off provide additionl water circulation. Porous coral rock in the sump assist in nitrate reduction, as does the naturally developing inch deep of natural fine coral mud in the 55 gal refugia/wet-dry system. An outside the tank protein skiimmer (Aqua C 180) connects to the sump. In contrast, I have a 50 gal tank with a bio-wheel, and an air-powered skimmer that I use to breed clowns and a few other species, in the winter months. It serves as a holding tank for locally collected fish in summer. It is crystal clear, with near perfect water conditions. My reef tankis similar to my large fish-only tanks, only without the bio-ball filtration media. My 100 gal reef has a lot of live rock, plus about an inch of coral mud on the aquarium floor, and some in the 30 gal sump, which has no function other than to provide the overflow with a place to collect, and be pumped back by an Iwaki 30. A smaller (EV120) protein skimmer is connected to the sump. Four VHO ice-cap driven flourescents provide enough light to keep my hard coral growing, my coralimorphians increasing in size, and the whole system flourishing since 1988, with an improved protein skimmer, the removal of bio-ball media about 8 years ago, and the ever thickening bed of coral mud, the only changes in 15 years. This tank, BTW, has cured fish infested with protozoan parasites. There are also strange predators that live in the heavy rockwork that can make short work of unwary creatures.. The tank is alive with life, and is really fun to watch at night, when all sorts of swimming worms and crustaceans come out to play. Much of the coral rock was collected, piece by piece over more than 15 trips, in the Caribbean. Only the biggest pieces of live rock were purchased, when the was still great rock coming in from the Bahamas. This is my favorite aquarium, and my oldest still running. There has never been the slightest trace of nitrate in this tank, even though I do water changes only every three or four months, about 25%. The fish tanks get that amount every month. I use only Poly Bio marine mats as chemical filters, and these sparingly. I also use RO water for most water changes, especially in the reef tank. Otherwisw, my local water has too much phosphate, and causes diatom blooms.

I've written way too much. Let me summarize by saying that many methods work, if you keep populations light, are really choosy about what you put into the tank, keep the water moving, do frequent water changes (full salinity, btw), and set things up sensibly. The additive and medication route is a loosing proposition. Meddling is not good. Keep your hands out. One should also go very slowly in the begining, and place no reliance on magic, commercial or otherwise.
 
Phew, glad you summarised that. :) All these miracle potions are rediculous. I add nothing to my tank except freshwater for top up and food. If you keep up water changes etc, there is no need to add anything else.
 
Sounds like an excellent, commonsense approach to it all! I'm hoping to go into marines extending what has worked for me with freshwater tropicals. A good basic filtration system, circulation, care in selecting the fish, conservative stocking levels, and a consistent approach to tank maitenance. I agree with the approach to technology and the 'pills and potions' mentality...which seems to apply to much else beyond fishkeeping as well. The idea that there's an instant fix for anything if you can just find the right magic device/pill/potion seems to afflict so many areas of modern living.
 
Hey All, It was too nice in my area this weekend to get a chance to pop on and say hi. I'm glad to see our aquarium discussion group just keeps getting larger and more interesting.

Kettle- my most successful marine aquarium to date was a mixed fish/invert/reef tank with a sump and an NNR Plenum. As agilas mentioned, most of the reason it was successful had more to do with the light fish load, and proper maintenance then with that particular filtration system. I've kept Clownfish in 10 gallon tanks with bare bottoms and sponge filters while I was doing the breeding thing.

I had a Berlin System before that. I will say that the BS gave me the best stony coral, and coralline algae growth. The thing I didn't like about it was I seemed to be constantly tinkering with it. The bare bottom needs constant vacuuming, and the Kalkwasser drip is a pain.

The more natural, simple systems seem to yield better results with less effort. I have a Natural System planted tank that is the most interesting freshwater tank I've ever owned. It's 70 gallons and densely planted to the point where I'll sometimes not see a particular fish for a couple of weeks. I have tetras that are seven years old in this tank, and "annual" killies will usually last over two years. I dropped a pair of Kribeneis (P. pulcher) in about six years ago. I'm on the fourth generation with no interference on my part. They breed, and a couple of fry manage to survive every year and displace the parents, just like in the wild. I barely need to touch this tank. I prune it every couple of weeks, and change the mixture in my DIY CO2 system once a month. A small monthly water change and some good food round off the routine.

One of the things that I also really believe in is good nutrition. At any time I'll have 20-30 different kinds of food available for my fish. I use high quality flake (keep it in the freezer), pellet, freeze dried and frozen foods. Live food and seaweed blends are given as often as I can.

How are you setting up your refugium? Your soft corals will appreciate it if it's generating some micro fauna for them to feed on.

Scott
 
I can't belive you guys. Didn't you get what finding nemo was about. Don't you understand the essence of the story at all?

It's about hope and more importantly freedom!!

Freedom is what we as humans treasure so dearly. So much so that when we feel at the very least threatened we jump up and attack whoever might be looking a little dodgy at the time and accuse them of trying to steal our little illusion.

We crave and demand freedom and rights ourselves, but yet we deny it to all other species!

If someone came along and scooped you up from the street and stuck you in a tank with a fake castle and bridge in it. Would you be happy? Would you feel free and hopeful?

Fish are meant to be in the sea (or lake or river...) not in your tank. If you're rehabilitating a fish - fine. If you are running an aquarium and trying very hard to inspire the public and raise awareness about the environment and educate children as well as perhaps keeping protected species as a safety net for conservation intiatives, maybe even breeding endgagered species.... great! I support you.

But I don't support the selfish entrapment of wildlife for your own satisfaction. What does that achieve?

Weren't you ever told to leave only bubbles and take and only pictures!!!??????

Even if the poor little Nemo like fishes have been bred for aquarium trade consumption - poor things! They haven't even spent a second living a free life out in the open! Why is that a better reasont to go and buy one and keep in all caged up.

How cruel!

Do you guys also keep birds in cages, just for giggles too?

Finding Nemo for most people inspired the caring and appreciation of our natural world. All the fish in the fish tank in the movie wanted to escape! Why are you all now thinking that it is a grand idea to keep some real ones locked up?

For some kids though - they tried to rescue fish from pet stores and flush them down the toilet to the sea - in order to try and set them free. The message in the movie was strong, but the plot was not well thought out. Didn't anyone writing the line "all drains lead to the ocean" think about what consequneces that might have in the real world. Obviously not! Grrrrr!!

So IMO these clown fish and the other popular ones to keep are really not having a good time of it. Some fish imprissioners like you guys think it's such a great idea to get these fish into tanks. Scoop them up from the wild you advise! How fun! While other younger versions of us are flushing as many as they can down the loo to try and do a good thing.

The pet trade of fish can screw with the wild populations. When people get fed up of their store bought fish they often release them to mix with wild populations. The genetic mix up that may result from this could spell tragedy for that species.

Same thing happening with farmed salmon escaping and mixing with wild salmon.

I want you all to think about animals and the rights that they should have and can't stand up for.

There are Nemos and Dorrys out there in fish tanks and I don't know if they are happy or unhappy - or even if they have the ability to relish freedom and feel good. I don't know that at all! But what I do know is that just because fish can't talk and tell us how they are feeling doesn't give us the right to assume they are hunky dorey and cage them up for the rest of their lives.

Enough said.

Happy diving - and put those fish nets away!!!!

:livid:
 
Bermuda- Your post couldn't be more off the mark, but it was so well intentioned that I'll give you the respect that you didn't give to any of us.

If you go back, take a breath, and re-read through this thread you will see the following:

I only keep, and advocate keeping "captive bred" marines. Most of the advances in marine aquaculture were due to the aqaurium hobby population being willing to pay more for these.

Someday, the fact that hundreds of fish and coral species are being captive bred will allow damaged reef areas to be re-populated with organisms that would have been extinct if not for hobbyists.

With regards to freshwater, do some research. You will find there are literally hundreds of different Killifish, livebearers and cichlids that are extinct in the wild due to development and habitat destruction, but are alive and well in hobbyists tanks.

My very first post I said yes to captive bred Clowns, and no to Hippo Tangs and Anemones.

Aquarists, like divers and every other hobby group run the gamut from people who could care less about the environment, to those who love the natural world. You lumping us all into one group without knowing us is no better than me assuming that all environmentalists are tree hugging nuts who blow things up.

As a fellow environmentalist I'm going to offer you two bits of advice that you can use as you see fit.

#1 Attacking and insulting people is no way to get people to listen to your viewpoint.

#2 Ask some questions and do some research before you wade into a topic with your boxing gloves on.

If you have any questions, or want to hear more about what's actually going on in the aquarium hobby. Feel free to ask.......

Scott
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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