Looking at getting some equipment for DM & redundancy

[emttim]

So my recent post in Basic Scuba Discussions about solo diving got me to thinking, and the way I figure, I probably /should/ have a redundant air source such as a pony bottle regardless of whether I buddy dive or not seeing as if I DM for my instructor's class, I really doubt one of the OW students will have an OOA emergency conveniently when I still have enough air to get both of us to the surface without cutting it close.

That being said, how do you guys use your pony? Do you sling it or mount it on your tank? Why? What are the pros & cons of each? Lastly, what specific sling or mount system would you recommend? For that matter, what tank size for a pony bottle would you recommend? How about reg or octo configuration?

The other thing I was thinking of was spare gear in case someone needs help or I lose something. What would you guys recommend? I have EMT shears and I am planning to get a small dive knife (and tether the shears to the shears holster so that one stays as a backup), and I have a little extra weight, but I can't think of what else I need for myself or for helping out the students...I don't want to be unnecessarily burdened on one hand, but on the other, I want to be in a position to help the students as necessary.

 

[eponym]

If you DM for an OW class: My philosophy when teaching any scuba course is to wear gear that makes sense in terms of the course content. I don't use a pony bottle in OW class because I'm trying to program students to stay close to a buddy as their OOA strategy. Nor would I want an assistant to carry a pony, for the same reason.

But I don't have any judgements about solo diving. When I was a new diver I had a spell of doing shallow (40' or less) dives solo to focus on developing my own skills, during which I carried a pony bottle on an X-bracket, upside-down on the tank band behind my right side (there are many pony rigging threads here on SB for you to search). I even composed the sticky disclaimer on the Solo forum.

I sold the pony a while back. Trying to practice what I teach, I guess.

-Bryan

 

[emttim]

If you DM for an OW class: My philosophy when teaching any scuba course is to wear gear that makes sense in terms of the course content. I don't use a pony bottle in OW class because I'm trying to program students to stay close to a buddy as their OOA strategy. Nor would I want an assistant to carry a pony, for the same reason.

But I don't have any judgements about solo diving. When I was a new diver I had a spell of doing shallow (40' or less) dives solo to focus on developing my own skills, during which I carried a pony bottle on an X-bracket, upside-down on the tank band behind my right side (there are many pony rigging threads here on SB for you to search). I even composed the sticky disclaimer on the Solo forum.

I sold the pony a while back. Trying to practice what I teach, I guess.

-Bryan

Hmm, well that makes sense. I guess I'll still have a crapload of air in case a student has an OOA emergency at the end of an OW dive anyway, come to think of it, since I have a HP 100 and my air consumption is quite good for my experience level.

You said you sold your pony...do you still solo dive? If so, do you just accept the risk of not having a redundant air source or do you start ending the dive and ascending for a safety stop with say 1000 psi instead of 500 left? Thanks for the input!

 

[Rick Inman]

... I really doubt one of the OW students will have an OOA emergency conveniently when I still have enough air to get both of us to the surface without cutting it close.

Really? Are you saying that your instructor will want you in the water without enough gas to get two of you safely to the surface?

 

[Web Monkey]

So my recent post in Basic Scuba Discussions about solo diving got me to thinking, and the way I figure, I probably /should/ have a redundant air source such as a pony bottle regardless of whether I buddy dive or not seeing as if I DM for my instructor's class, I really doubt one of the OW students will have an OOA emergency conveniently when I still have enough air to get both of us to the surface without cutting it close.

Without starting a philosophical debate over whether divers should use pony bottles, as the DM, it's your responsibility to dive safely, both for you and whoever you're teaching/touring.

You need to end the dive before you get to the point where you can't safely share air to the surface with a (panicked) diver, at the worst possible moment.

This should be an actual number calculated using your moderately stressed SAC rate, the SAC rate of the biggest hoover in your group (probably somewhere between 2 and 3 CFM), the maximum depth of your dive and your ascent time.

Whether or not you use a pony, you'll need to make sure you end the dive while you still have enough gas to get you and a panicked OOA diver safely to the surface.

As a DM, a pony might actually be nice, since if you do run OOA, and you're leading tours for vacation divers, trying to share air might not end as pleasantly as it does in class.

The other thing I was thinking of was spare gear in case someone needs help or I lose something. What would you guys recommend? I have EMT shears and I am planning to get a small dive knife (and tether the shears to the shears holster so that one stays as a backup), and I have a little extra weight, but I can't think of what else I need for myself or for helping out the students...I don't want to be unnecessarily burdened on one hand, but on the other, I want to be in a position to help the students as necessary.

On the dive, extra weight is handy for divers that underestimate their needs.

"Spare Everything" is handy on land, since someone always needs something, however this is typically the shop's responsibility, not yours. If you want to be a hero and the shop isn't sending anything, wire-ties, a spare mouthpiece and tank o-rings are good to have around.

Terry

 

[philmayer]

I DM classes all the time. If you're in the water with a low tank, you're doing something wrong. Checkout dives rarely take more than 20 minutes each and are at 20 feet.

Yes, you want to have plenty of air to help students who have an OOA emergency, but you should also be checking their air supply before and after every dive. You should never have a class situation where there is an OOA problem.

As far as gear, do not ever loan your gear to a student. It's a liability issue. Only give the students gear that the instructor supplies.

As far as gear I carry for making adjustments and such, I carry a knife and shears. My kit on the shore has spare o-rings, first aid kit, water, etc. Sometimes I'll carry extra weight, sometimes not.

 

[emttim]

Really? Are you saying that your instructor will want you in the water without enough gas to get two of you safely to the surface?

No, but **** happens.

Without starting a philosophical debate over whether divers should use pony bottles, as the DM, it's your responsibility to dive safely, both for you and whoever you're teaching/touring.

You need to end the dive before you get to the point where you can't safely share air to the surface with a (panicked) diver, at the worst possible moment.

This should be an actual number calculated using your moderately stressed SAC rate, the SAC rate of the biggest hoover in your group (probably somewhere between 2 and 3 CFM), the maximum depth of your dive and your ascent time.

Whether or not you use a pony, you'll need to make sure you end the dive while you still have enough gas to get you and a panicked OOA diver safely to the surface.

As a DM, a pony might actually be nice, since if you do run OOA, and you're leading tours for vacation divers, trying to share air might not end as pleasantly as it does in class.



On the dive, extra weight is handy for divers that underestimate their needs.

"Spare Everything" is handy on land, since someone always needs something, however this is typically the shop's responsibility, not yours. If you want to be a hero and the shop isn't sending anything, wire-ties, a spare mouthpiece and tank o-rings are good to have around.

Terry

Fair enough. My SAC rate is typically 0.63 CF/min, so if I bump that up to say 0.80 CF/min to account for moderate stress, multiply it by 2 ata since as Phil said most checkout dives are at 20 ft which is below 33 ft, then with an air consumption rate of 1.6 CF/min I can stay down 51 minutes. Figure the checkout dive takes 30 minutes which it probably won't, I still have 33.3 CF of air left, which at a rate of 3 CF/min, I figure it'll last 11 minutes. I guess it won't be an issue then...11 minutes is more than enough time to get to the surface with air leftover even with a safety stop.

I was already planning to expand my Save-A-Dive kit a little so I guess I'll just get some extra tank O-rings, one or two extra mouthpieces and some extra wire-ties.

I DM classes all the time. If you're in the water with a low tank, you're doing something wrong. Checkout dives rarely take more than 20 minutes each and are at 20 feet.

Yes, you want to have plenty of air to help students who have an OOA emergency, but you should also be checking their air supply before and after every dive. You should never have a class situation where there is an OOA problem.

As far as gear, do not ever loan your gear to a student. It's a liability issue. Only give the students gear that the instructor supplies.

As far as gear I carry for making adjustments and such, I carry a knife and shears. My kit on the shore has spare o-rings, first aid kit, water, etc. Sometimes I'll carry extra weight, sometimes not.

For loaning gear to a student, would even weight be a liability issue? I don't see why not but I'm certainly interested to find out about this since I'm an EMT and well aware of how serious liability can be.

 

[philmayer]

PADI's guidelines say never to loan out gear. I think it's from the standpoint that it something fails, you would have a liability issue. If you're handing out the shop's weight to a student, you should be fine. If they're using yours...... I can't imagine weight failing.

When you're DMing, are you covered by your shop's insurance, or do you have your own? My shop has a plan from V&B that covers all of the instructors, DMs, and equipment.

 

[emttim]

PADI's guidelines say never to loan out gear. I think it's from the standpoint that it something fails, you would have a liability issue. If you're handing out the shop's weight to a student, you should be fine. If they're using yours...... I can't imagine weight failing.

When you're DMing, are you covered by your shop's insurance, or do you have your own? My shop has a plan from V&B that covers all of the instructors, DMs, and equipment.

Yeah, I can't imagine weight failing either. As far as insurance goes, I'm actually doing the DM program through an independent instructor so it's not through a shop...I'm not sure if we're covered under his insurance while we're DM candidates or not...should I be looking into getting insurance now before I start assisting with classes?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As a candidate you are covered by his as long as you are under direct supervision. You can't do squat if he is not there. Also as a candidate you are not a DM yet technically speaking. So the question is are you loaning as a DM or letting a buddy use extra stuff you have? And are you willing to take a chance? I loaned my bc and reg to my nephew for his checkouts. I'm an authorized tech for the brand so I know it's good. I also know his parents would not sue me if he died or got hurt. They'd just kill me outright. Even though he is 24. As far as spares for my self I usually carry a full set of gear. BC regs, fins, mask, tanks etc. I own enough though to outfit at least 4 divers. For recreational stuff minus exposure suits of course unless they are mediums and would dive 3 mil in 53 degree quarries.