Long-hose in the time of COVID-19

[Edward3c]

I've had students who've complete their OW a few months previous, have dived occasionally since then and been taught by an instructor I respect and who I know would have ensured their skills were mastered and repeatable. Yet their current skill level is shocking simply because they've neither practiced nor even bothered to retain what they were taught

I can support your statement; and it included BSAC trained divers. Some turn up at the monthly open water regional training to undertake Dive Leader or Advanced Diver skills without having being dived up, sometimes, they've not been in the water for over 12 months. I've been told on numerous occasions I require too high a standard, but each time when I show them the published standard criteria they agree they didn't meet it.

 

[Diving Dubai]

I can support your statement; and it included BSAC trained divers. Some turn up at the monthly open water regional training to undertake Dive Leader or Advanced Diver skills without having being dived up, sometimes, they've not been in the water for over 12 months. I've been told on numerous occasions I require too high a standard, but each time when I show them the published standard criteria they agree they didn't meet it.

I teach my students to mentally run through their skills beforehand, even at home. It's something I learnt to do when perfecting my skills circuit for DM. By that time I was a DL, but even so, while most of my skills were workable they weren't as good as I thought they were (some far from it)

Prior to teaching a course, I still refresh myself the night before, not only going through the course but always going through the critical skills. Similarly for normal diving skills I'm not using often I mentally run through, and often while bored at a SS I'll run through the physical skill, not only to keep in practice but also to challenge myself with minimal buoyancy drift.

If my students think I'm taught, I point out that I was that diver, who for nearly 100 dives wouldn't' clear his mask unless absolutely necessary. I'd learnt and passed the skill during OW, then later on made a mess of it, and lost my confidence. This meant in the real world, I would have some miserable dives because my mask was fogging and it was stressing me.

Getting myself over that hurdle (with a patient but firm instructor/buddy) improved my diving enjoyment immeasurably. Mask off swims and skills are my favourite to demonstrate.

In my view it helps if your can narrate personal experiences to the diver as an explanation of why, rather than it just being in the standards, something that instructors with the bare minimum of experience can't draw upon

 

[Diving Dubai]

I think the SB data is actually worse than anecdotal data due to a tendency to conform to the local norms and repeating what is essentially folklore. For the whole bpw/long hose/primary donate vs conventional configurations it leads to all sorts of assertions I find very hard to believe, people claiming stuff to be well know which is actually quite controversial and so forth.

Agree.

Case in point. The current Hysteria about clipping off a LH, because you're using the bungeed backup.

Someone experienced with LH, and deco will know that you only clip off a reg, when you've got a working reg in your mouth. As @ScubaWithTurk (and others) have correctly pointed out, in SM you do clip off your LH when not in use, but have a breakaway

Now I know that during OW you're taught to have your backup within easy reach and not clipped off, so someone who has moved to LH, should realise as a thinking diver that you need to make a minor change to the way yoru kit is rigged.

But no. because they're blindly following a protocol without any thought of minor adaptions to suit the current situation or environment.

I see the same with some LH people on boats, not having thought through the best way of adaption the rig to suit the fact they'll be unkitting in the water. It's comical. They're so entrenched into a mindset of it can only be done a certain way their blinded to the fact that they're actually not diving a rig optimised for that situation, and in doing so cause themselves all sorts of headaches that could easily have been avoided with a tiny bit of thought

 

[Colliam7]

Do you think clipping the regulator significantly increases the time it takes to donate in a OOG situation? Would you keep it unclipped instead (just hanging on your neck) in a recreational dive?

I do not think clipping has to significantly increase the 'time to donate', IF a break-away clip attachment is used. I use an O-ring, either a 014 or a 112, wrapped around the base of the bolt snap, with a zip tie running through the two ends of the O-ring and wrapped around the hose. The hose will reliably and quickly break away from the bolt snap with a firm tug, as the O-ring separates.

I do not allow my primary second stage to remain unclipped when I am using my necklace alternate - too much risk of the hose slipping off my shoulder, or the second stage slipping down and away from me.

 

[Edward3c]

I teach my students to mentally run through their skills beforehand, even at home. It's something I learnt to do when perfecting my skills circuit for DM. By that time I was a DL, but even so, while most of my skills were workable they weren't as good as I thought they were (some far from it)

Prior to teaching a course, I still refresh myself the night before, not only going through the course but always going through the critical skills.

If only we had the luxury of speaking to students before the training day.

it’s not unusual for students to just say they need a SD Lesson. When they turn up and I check their training log I find Ocean Diver hasn’t been completed. We also get Dive Leader candidates turn up for Lesson 1 (Mid water DSMB deployment) who’ve never shot one off before or even own one, having trained with another agency.

I‘ve learned to be adaptive running these sessions for around 14 years.

 

[rddvet]

Scuba divers are general pretty smart accomplished folks..

That's pretty funny. I sure would like to hang out with who you hang out with. I think that's true for a lot of technical divers (as a whole it should take some level of intelligence to become a technical diver though I'm now really starting to question that) and I think it's true for the grand majority of people on scubaboard who tend to be inquisitive, intelligent divers. But if you look at the general population of certified divers out there I definitely can't agree with that statement.

 

[saxman242]

@saxman242 over many threads keeps trying insist their stats are anecdotal (probably because of some insecurity between his views and thiers) but this is not the case

No. I'm doing it because recorded statements that are based highly on personal testimony are, by definition, anecdotal evidence. For something to be empirical evidence, as is the counter claim, it must be observable and repeatable. Recorded incident reports are neither observable nor repeatable.

I'm not saying that the recorded incidents don't have value, but to call them empirical is simply not appropriate.

 

[Diving Dubai]

If only we had the luxury of speaking to students before the training day.

it’s not unusual for students to just say they need a SD Lesson. When they turn up and I check their training log I find Ocean Diver hasn’t been completed. We also get Dive Leader candidates turn up for Lesson 1 (Mid water DSMB deployment) who’ve never shot one off before or even own one, having trained with another agency.

I‘ve learned to be adaptive running these sessions for around 14 years.

Happens in the commercial world all teh time. I appreciate you're more regional, but at club level at least you have an clue about their diving

I try to get students at the centre early, so you can complete all the paperwork, have a good chat, and a relaxed days divign where you can spend time reviewing and debriefing

Invariably the opposite happens because the students time limit themselves and then you're under pressure over both days. I tell all my students, that I'm there 100% for them over the course, and to get the most out of me. Some have the interest and do, others not so much

 

[Bob DBF]

My question is with avoiding covid, who and when are these pristine regs being tested for proper operation? Purging a reg only shows the purge works, not that the reg is breathing properly, not to mention that you just handled the reg.

I breathe off my alternate at the beginning and end of my dive, and around the deepest part of the dive to insure I'm not going to handing off a nonoperating, or poorly operating reg. I do this whether I'm using primary or alternate donation.

Do we now just use alternate donate and hope the reg works? It seems more training may be needed for csea, that way any chance of covid can be avoided. This new challenge will probably just reduce the number of rec divers.

US cave divers are taught to RECEIVE the primary, not to take it. BSAC to my knowledge is the only agency that TEACHES a diver to TAKE a regulator

BSAC is trained to TAKE the Alternate, not just any regulator.

 

[ScubaWithTurk]

But the originating data still stands and is a valuable resource. Most people here want to dismiss the data becuase it contridicts their personal point of view

I would not say that the data on primary donate and the hog loop is factual data.

Fro BSAC: " On behalf of BSAC, NDC carried out studies in open water to examine Long Hose Wrapping
and Primary Donate. Through our studies, and by reproducing documented incidents, there was
judged to be sufficient concerns for BSAC, BSAC Technical and the National Diving Committee
to issue policy statements and clarifications on the position of BSAC divers and BSAC training
methods. "

Ummm what studies, under what conditions and where are the results of such studies? ScubaWithTurk carried out studies and found the above to be inaccurate. LOL Now I am not making an original argument here. This argument comes directly from BSAC members. You can see BSAC members questioning this fro back in 2009 on this thread from Yorkshire divers

I know BSAC has some good things going for it such as the community it creates but when you are the lone organization stating that the LH/primary donate is dangerous , you may want to look at your "data" and reexamine your position. Even PADI allows this in the OW course and they are quite reluctant to make changes in order to protect them the instructors and their divers.

Just my two bar.