liveaboard.com Can I trust them?

[maddog2]

Typical nonsense with no legal validity that's only meant to intimidate the uninformed. For this to be enforceable, it would have to part of a valid (and pre-existing) contract between the sender and recipient. You can't create a contract merely by claiming one exists. It's exactly as valid as the following statement.

If you read this, you owe me $1,000,000.

To be complete, I should note that a sender of a message does have a copyright in the original content of the message. However, sharing a portion or even the entirety of the message with additional commentary in the context of discussing a customer service issue is unquestionably covered as a transformative use under Fair Use in US law.

Disclaimer . I am not a lawyer. But I was a professional librarian. Here's some actual lawyers' thoughts on this issue:

Email disclaimers generally not legally binding

The other day I received an email from a lawyer in Chicago who I don’t talk to very often. So I was a little surprised to hear from him. There was nothing in the body of the email, but there …

www.chicagotribune.com

TO INCLUDE OR NOT TO INCLUDE: THE ART OF EMAIL DISCLAIMERS – NAE

www.nevadaemployers.org

Email Confidentiality Disclaimers: Annoying But Are They Legally Binding?

A look at different examples of email confidentiality disclaimers, their legal value plus common reasons why companies might use them.

cenkuslaw.com

Thanks for the reference links. A very interesting read. The main reason I don't quote or use Regina Sask's real first name and don't put direct quotes into this forum is because I don't want to give Regina any reason whatsoever to rescind my voucher.

The voucher entitles me:
1) to use the credit of $3430 usd on any boat trip that is sold through Liveaboard.com
2) to sell it and change the name of the person on the voucher.

I'm not worried about a law suit from Liveaboard.com. After all, if they can't afford to refund my $3430 usd in cash, then it's highly unlikely that they would be able to hire a lawyer to sue me. I'm more concerned that Liveaboard.com might not be in a position to honour the terms of my credit voucher, for whatever reason. That is also the reason why I would prefer a cash refund.

 

[maddog2]

I have almost given up on Regina and Liveaboard.com as it seems that she will pick any excuse to refuse a refund. Here are a few examples.

- Regina’s latest excuse is that under Clause 10 of Masterliveaboard’s ‘Terms and Conditions’ it is stated: This clause 10 outlines the rights you have if you wish to cancel your booking. Please note that there is no automatic statutory right of cancellation under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (Directive 2011/83/EU).

I pointed out that I am not asking for an automatic statutory right of cancellation. I am asking for my right to cancel as stated in the paragraph above her quote:

"in the event of “unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances” occurring at your holiday destination or its immediate vicinity and significantly affecting the performance of the holiday or significantly affecting the transport arrangements to the destination. In these circumstances, we shall provide you with a full refund of the monies you have paid"

- Another excuse was that the ‘Corona Clause’ stipulated that I was ineligible for a refund.
I pointed out that the ‘Corona Clause’ didn’t exist at the time of my booking.

- Regina stated that ‘rescheduled’ trips do not qualify for a refund.

I pointed out that this was the original trip not a rescheduled trip. Also, there is no reference in the ‘Terms and Conditions’ of ‘rescheduled’ trips.

Also, I had the same conversation earlier with Regina about rescheduling my trip and then cancelling and her answer then was the complete opposite -
.
I pointed out that I could accept the credit now and then rebook immediately with Indo Siren for the 2022 trip to guarantee my spot and then cancel next year (with > 30 days) and receive an 85% refund, could I not? To which Regina relied that she completely agreed with me. and that it seemed illogical for the Indo Siren to take this stance, since I could cancel and receive a refund.

So, what is the policy on 'rescheduled' trips? It seems to change depending on whether it's convenient and advantageous to Liveaboard.com

- Regina stated that it was unreasonable because of COVID to request a full refund 136 days prior to the departure date. I pointed out to Regina that I cancelled my dive trip in June 2020 about 60 days prior to departure and over two months after the WHO declared a pandemic and both Canada and Indonesia closed their borders.

 

[maddog2]

Earlier I asked Regina to have a lawyer from their legal dept. contact me, but I was refused as all communication must go through their Customer Support Team. I presume this is Regina since she is the Regional Manager of Customer Support, so now I'm back to trying to reason with Regina who keeps coming up with different excuses not to give me a refund.

After I pointed out to Regina that the 'Corona Clause' is not a valid argument in my case because that clause was put into effect in 2021 and not 2020 when I requested my refund. Regina is now citing two other reasons why my initial refund request is not valid.

1. Article 5.9 (Liveaboard.com's Terms of Use) of the terms, operator policies may change in case of Force Majeure events.
2. Clause 10 (Masterliveaboard.com's Terms and Conditions) states 'Please note that there is no automatic statutory right of cancellation under the Consumer Contracts'

First,It seems that Regina is picking and choosing at her convenience which contract applies to my Booking, which I don't believe is valid.

Second, article 5.9 is part of section 5 regarding 'Cancellations and Amendments' so it's stating that the above sections 5.1 through 5.8 may change in case of Force Majeure events. I presume Regina is referring to the Pandemic as a Force Majeure event. I would agree with that. However, the Operator in this case is the Indo Siren Operator, so I would contend that we would fall back to the Masterliveaboad's 'Terms and Conditions'.

Third, I wasn't asking for an 'automatic statutory right of cancellation'. I'm asking for a cancellation and refund because "the Foreign and Commonwealth Office advises against travel to your destination or its immediate vicinity" and as stated earlier in those Terms "we shall provide you with a full refund of the monies you have paid ..."

In my next update, in case I decide to sell my Voucher I will need to inform potential Buyers of the circumstances of my dispute with Liveaboard.comas as a 'Caveat Emptor'. A more concise timeline of my initial Booking with Liveaboard.com would help as well. I can then use this Forum thread as a reference for the potential buyers.

After that I will provide my thoughts about the mysterious phone calls from Liveaboard.com Reps back in July 2021. This was followed up a couple of days later by a phone call from Regina which in my mind was also odd considering the context of the previous calls. If not suspicious as well, it was at the very least not informative and I would have expected more than that from a Dive Trip Advisor, especially from a Regional Customer Support Manager. I'll also provide my thoughts on the flimsy excuse Liveaboard.com used to not use my Voucher for their next customer and then provide me with my refund.

 

[aquabluegreg]

In very simplistic terms, and this may not apply outside the US, it depends upon which party canceled. You have a basic contract to purchase goods and/or services from a vendor in return for a fee. If the vendor is unable to provide those goods and/or services and cancels, they are in breach of the contract. You as the buyer have the right to request a refund.

 

[maddog2]

Here is a tidier chronological summary of my initial interactions with Liveaboard.com along with the announced COVID travel restrictions to Indonesia.

- January 21, 2020 (Liveaboard.com reply)
Booking confirmed for Komodo dive trip)

17 March 2020 BBC News Published

Coronavirus: Britons urged to avoid non-essential travel abroad

Restrictions will be in place for 30 days initially but could be extended, the foreign secretary says.
www.bbc.com

Coronavirus: Britons urged to avoid non-essential travel abroad

British nationals should avoid all non-essential foreign travel to tackle the spread of coronavirus, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has advised.

It is the first time the FCO has advised against foreign travel anywhere in the world.

March 27, 2020:
the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has advised against foreign travel anywhere in the world.

- March 21, 2020 (maddog2)
Is the Indo Siren Komodo liveaboard trip from Aug 17 to Aug 27 still scheduled to run? International Airline flights to Indonesia have been cancelled.

April 2, 2020, in accordance with Indonesian Minister of Law and Human Rights Regulation number 11/2020, Indonesia does not allow visits and transit from all foreign tourists

https://kemlu.go.id/bern/en/pages/informasi_covid-19/3504/etc-menu

April 3, 2020
CONSULATE GENERAL OF THE REPUBLIC OF INDONESIA
IN VANCOUVER, CANADA
Starting 2 April 2020, 00:00 Western Indonesia Time, Indonesia will TEMPORARILY restrict any foreigner from entering the Indonesian territory, as one of the steps to curb the COVID-19 pandemic in Indonesia.

https://kemlu.go.id/vancouver/en/news/5952/urgent-temporary-travel-restriction-for-foreigners-to-indonesia

- April 3, 2020 (maddog2)
Indonesia has closed its borders to all visitors except Indonesian citizens. Can I please have a complete refund or at the very least a postponement of this trip.

- April 3, 2020 (maddog2)
Currently, Indonesia is not allowing visitors …

I would prefer to have my money returned and then plan for the same trip at the same time next year.

- April 3, 2020 (liveaboard.com reply)
We are still waiting to hear from the Indo Siren operator as to the options to reschedule your trip.

- April 4, 2020 (liveaboard.com reply)
We are still waiting to hear from the Indo Siren operator as to the options to reschedule your trip.

- April 4, 2020 (liveaboard.com reply)
We have now heard back from the Indo Siren operator.
As mentioned earlier, at the moment, there have not been any interruptions or changes to your planned trip,

- April 5, 2020 (maddog2)
According to several web sites it seems that Indonesia and Bali have restricted travel regulations and have barred all foreign arrivals and transit.

https://www.bali.com/travel-restrictions-corona-ban-bali-indonesia.html

"Until further notice, President Jokowi has banned all foreign arrivals and transits. Only travellers with a valid working permit and diplomats are allowed to enter. "


- April 6, 2020 (liveaboard.com reply)
The Indo Siren operator expects all the travel bans will be lifted by the end of May. That's why we mentioned that at the moment, there have not been any interruptions or changes to your planned trip,

- At the end of May (Liveaboard.com reply) the travel bans remained in place and Liveaboard.com offered two options:

1. lose my money
2. Reschedule my dive trip for the following year

I ‘chose’ the latter and got confirmation of my new booking on June 15, 2020.

It’s my contention that, Liveaboard.com should have informed me that I was allowed to have a complete refund of the monies I had paid as stated in Masterliveaboard.com “Terms and Conditions”. Also, according to the ‘Terms and Conditions’ after the FCO announced that the borders were closed I should have been refunded my “monies” immediately.

I will follow up this post with details of the suspicious phone calls from Liveaboard.com Reps that were then followed up a few days later by Regina the Regional (Americas) Customer Support Manager of Liveaboard.com It’s my belief that these phone calls were directed by Regina in a ploy to get me to rebook a different dive trip in order to negate my 30% discount (more detailed info in my next update).

I’m a relative newbie to liveaboard diving and I never knew or suspected that the Indo Siren Operator (In my opinion, in complicity with Liveaboard.com) could arbitrarily decide to rescind the 30% discount without providing a complete refund. I don’t recall seeing anything to that effect in their advertising, especially pre-pandemic.

 

[maddog2]

Suspicious phone calls

The pandemic continues so I tried to postpone my Indo Siren trip.

June 15, 2021 (Liveaboard.com - Nxxx)
Nxxx confirmed that I can postpone my August 2021 trip.

June 16, 2021 (maddog2)
please find out from the Operator whether a refund is possible

June 19, 2021 (Liveaboard.com - Nxxx)
Nxxx replied that refunds for rescheduled trips are not possible.
But she placed the request with the operator to see what can be done.

June 24, 2021 (Liveaboard.com- Nxxx)
My inquiry is taking a little longer than they are accustomed to due to the high volume of requests.

Sat. June 26 2021 (Liveaboard.com - Nxxx)
She is still waiting on the possibility of a refund.

June 16 - June 24 (Liveaboard.com) I received a couple of phone calls from Liveaboard.com. On one phone call the Liveaboard.com Rep either hung up on me, or was disconnected after I asked for her name. In the other call I was asked if I was interested in diving destinations other than Indonesia (???)

Sat., June 26, 2021 (maddog2) -
Hi Nxxx:

As for other destinations, I'm not sure…so I'll stick with the Komodo destination.

Wed., June 30, 2021 (Liveaboard.com - Nxxx)
By other destinations, NIxx said she actually meant other countries - Maldives, Egypt, Galapagos....

Nxxx asked to call me Thursday end of day or Friday end of day

July 1, 2021 (maddog2) - I should be available on Friday.

Mon., July 4, 2021 (maddog2)
I was awaiting your phone call on Friday, but didn't hear from you.

Sat. July 10, 2021 (Liveaboard.com - Nxxx)
thank you very much for taking my call.

Nxxx has a hold confirmation for me in a Twin cabin on the 4th August 2022 trip aboard the Indo Siren.

She is also working on my refund request.

July 13, 2021 (Liveaboard.com - Nxxx)
it seems that a full refund might be a possible option.

July 13-15, 2021 (Liveabloard.com - Regina)
I received an unexpected phone call from Regina to discuss my Booking.

She asked about my Booking, which was odd because Regina should have those details from my previous cancelled Bookings. I said that I didn’t have those details in front of me (because her call was unexpected).

Regina asked whether the total price was about $5000 usd. I told her that that seemed to be correct. She then went on to say that she would send me an email to confirm my Booking. That was odd because in my previous rescheduled Bookings I never received a phone call and was never asked to confirm the details, except for the date.

<<< Regina never mentioned a price increase, or the removal of the 30% discount and neither did Nxxx on July 10. Was that an intentional oversight? >>>

July 15, 2021, 1:07 GMT+2 (Liveaboard.com - Regina)

Regina stated that due to the terms and conditions of my booking, and due to the operator offering a reschedule or voucher to replace my current trip, they will not be able to provide a refund to me at this time.

Please double check your booking details below and let me know if you have any further questions.

BOOKING DETAILS ----------------------------

Vessel: Indo Siren
Itinerary: Komodo National Park (Labuan Bajo-Labuan Bajo)
Experience Level: Advanced Open Water - 20 minimum logged dives required.
Leaving From: Labuan Bajo, Indonesia
Returning To: Labuan Bajo, Indonesia
Dates: 04 Aug 2022(10 am) - 14 Aug 2022(10 am)

GUEST 1: Mr. maddog2 (Premium Twin Cabin)
Includes: Marine Park Fees & local taxes

TOTAL PRICE: US$ 5,055.00
--------------------------------------------------

Please confirm the above is correct and we will then apply your credit to the new date and issue your booking voucher.

--------------------------------------------------

Embarkation & Disembarkation transfers

Arrival airport: Labuan Bajo (LBJ)
Departure airport: Labuan Bajo (LBJ)

etc, etc, etc

Any questions, please let me know

Replacement for AA145427

Sun, Jul 18, 2021 (maddog2)
Hi Regina: The information looks good.

Jul 20, 2021, 6:45 GMT+2 (Livdeaboard.com)
After Regina emailed the voucher, I replied immediately that there was a mistake in the Balance.

Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 10:25 AM (maddog2)
Regina:

There's a problem with the Booking Voucher. It shows a balance of $1625 usd, when in fact I should have a balance of (zero) $0 usd. Initially, when I booked, I took advantage of the Indo Siren's 30% discount offer. Can you please correct the balance on the voucher …

Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:05 PM (maddog2)
Here are the previous two Booking Vouchers (they both show a $0 usd balance and also show fully paid)

… please resend the corrected Booking Voucher.

Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 2:56 PM (maddog2)
Hello,

Regina recently sent me an updated trip 'Booking Voucher' but it contained incorrect financial information. Will you please have a Manager contact me either by phone or email.

Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 6:34 AM (maddog2)
Hello

Please have a Manager contact me either by email or by phone. I can be contacted at #### between 1:00 PM and 5:00 PM PT (Pacific Time).

Jul 23, 2021, 22:17 GMT+2 (maddog2)
I called and spoke with Lxxx who replied that Regina was away, but they are working on my booking.

Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 1:24 PM (maddog2)
Hi Lxxx:

I hope this doesn't take very long. Regina just made a mistake on the Total and the Balance. She just needs to copy the exact same information from either of the previous two Booking Vouchers, except for the date and Booking Voucher number. It should be straightforward and easy to remedy.

Jul 25, 2021, 1:00 GMT+2 (Liveaboard.com - Nxxx)

In response to your email below, the issue here is that the operator is not cooperative in honouring the original rate you have paid.

<<< Now they tell me! >>>

Nxxx said they she is still negotiating with the Indo Siren Operator and hopefully they would honour the original trip cost of USD 3430.

Jul 24, 2021, 4:35 PM (maddog2)
Please do your best to honour Liveaboard.com's price quote.

Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 7:14 PM (Livaboard.com - NIxx)

Nxxx said that her colleague actually sent me the new booking details asking for your confirmation. This was on July 15th.

I understand though it can be easy to overlook.


Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 8:14 PM (maddog2)
Hi Nxxx:

My understanding was that the approximate $5000 usd mentioned in that email was before the 30% discount was applied.

… why would I agree to a 50% increase in the liveaboard fare. I originally agreed to pay $3430.00 usd. This same amount $3430 usd was charged in both AA138670 and AA145427.

Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 8:33 PM (Liveaboard.com - Nixx)

Nxxx thanked me for clarifying my understanding and mentioned that the operator may not honour the 30% (total trip cost of USD 3430), but she will do her best to have a refund accepted

<<< Jul 25, 2021, 1:17 AM (ScubaBoaard - maddog2)

Dom@DiveAdvice replied to a thread you are watching at ScubaBoard.)

We had literally hundreds of clients and charters on our books when this pandemic hit and we have refunded a few but most preferred to reschedule (some now 2 or 3 times), but we have never asked for more money, even when they were booked in a 50% Sale.

Refunds are now more difficult (not impossible) but you should not accept an increase in rates for the same trip and we would not ask you to do so. >>>


Jul 27, 2021, 7:16 AM (Liveaboard.com - Regina)
We are contractually bound to adhere and apply our partner's terms and conditions.

In this case, my booking is with the Indo Siren, a part of the Master Liveaboards fleet.

Per their terms and conditions, (found here), for booking impacted by the global pandemic, they issue a credit equal to the amount paid.

<<< with regards to my initial Booking that is incorrect (another dispute) >>>

Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 12:51 PM (maddog2)
Regina:

As I have told you before, I did not agree to a non-discounted price of $5055.00 usd.

I expected that price to be discounted by 30%, the same as my previous bookings. … Does it make sense to you that I would accept an increases of almost 50% for the same trip?

<<< The original Booking Voucher AA138670, show the same amount of $5055.00 usd. The subsequent Booking Voucher AA145427 is also for this same amount $5055.00 usd (the extra $155 usd is for the Park Fee). > >>

Jul 27, 2021, 21:28 GMT+2 (Liveaboard.com - Regina)
the reservation forms an agreement between the guests and the operator. Liveaboard BV is not a party in this agreement

Jul 28, 2021 (Liveaboard.com - Regina)
Regina stated that on July 14th she quoted the "Total Price" which was to the amount of US$ 5,055.00 and asked me to confirm if I wish to go ahead at this rate.

Your response on July 18th stated, "The information looks good."

July 28 - maddod2

Hi Regina:

You seem to be stuck on this technical issue of whether I agreed to your price before you issued the Booking Voucher. I don't agree with you … But, would it really have mattered if I pointed out the error to you and said that you're overcharging me? I think not. So, what exactly is your point? I would still like to hear back from a Manager at Liveaboard.com. Can you do that for me, or will you continue to not respond to this request?

I could also point out that you were incompetent and/or deceptive in not pointing out that the Indo Siren operator was not honouring their original commitment to offer 30% off.


Jul 30, 2021, 20:55 GMT+2 (Liveaboard.com - Regina)
Regina finally cancelled my Indo Siren booking and requested the paperwork for a general credit voucher.

<<< Why the hassle? Could she have done that earlier? >>>

<<< Regina repeatedly chose to fight me. Instead of advocating on my behalf she was advocating for the Indo Siren Operator. >>>

<<< But I don’t want a Voucher for $3430. I want them to honour their original commitment for the Komodo trip, or give me a full refund as promised in Masterliveaboard's "Terms and Conditions".>>>

P.S. I posted a letter to Gerald Skrobanek on Jan. 8, but I have not heard back from him.

 

[maddog2]

---An update on my dispute with Liveaboard.com (Sept 16, 2021)

Liveaboard.com has given me a Non-expiring, Transferable, Voucher worth $3430 usd that can be used to cover any trip listed on the LiveAboard.com website. The voucher money is not coming from the IndoSiren Operator as I can book on any Liveaboard vessel listed on the Liveaboard.com website, so I assume it is from Liveaboard.com. In that case, I'm not sure why they don't just offer me a refund, unless they want to pocket the commission fees (twice). Regardless, of Liveaboard.com's reasons for not offering me a complete refund, I have decided to sell this Voucher.

Liveaboard.com Voucher sale:
I am unable to dive currently because of medical issues and would like to offer this voucher to anyone in the diving community at a 12.5% discount ie. $3000 usd.

If anyone is interested in purchasing this Voucher please post a reply to this thread.

I am updating this post, because my Voucher is no longer for sale.

 

[admikar]

I am updating this post, because my Voucher is no longer for sale.

With the saga you wrote on last couple of pages, it would be nice to know reason why?

 

[maddog2]

Finally a refund

I received an email from Liveaboard.com (not Regina) a few days ago that essentially said that we will agree to disagree. However, in my case, they are making an exception in providing a refund so that we can both move forward and I can take down the sale of my Liveaboard.com voucher.

Before that my intention was to add another update with further email details regarding:
- using my voucher for any new liveaboard customer and using that money to provide me with a refund,
- refund ineligibility for my ‘rescheduled’ trip,
- the recent 2021 Corona Clause and why its not relevant to my 2020 booking,
- compliance with Masterliveaboard.com’s pre-pandemic FCO requirement, which is relevant to my initial booking.
- the confusion by Regina with Masterliveaboard’s Terms and Conditions and Liveaboard.com’s Terms.
- Jul 27, 2021, 7:16 AM (Liveaboard.com - Regina)
“We are contractually bound to adhere and apply our partner's terms and conditions.”

If that’s the case why use Liveaboard.com’s Terms of Use section 5.9 as an excuse to deny a refund? Use Masterliveaboard.com’s ‘Terms and Conditions’ that you say you are contractually bound to. Don’t play with two sets of rules, and then pick and choose which rules you’ll abide by.

My $3430 usd could have grown to over $4000 over those 2 years. Also, by my count I sent over 130 emails to Liveaboard.com. So, getting my money refunded is not a victory, by any means. In all honesty, as this dispute progressed it became more about getting a refund, than about my money. If you know what I mean.

Things that infuriated me.
1. The Indo Siren Operator took away my 30% discount and replaced my zero balance with a balance owing of $1625 usd.
2. Liveaboard.com did not point out that my 30% discount was rescinded or explain why.
3. Liveaboard.com pushed back and fought me by alleging that I had agreed to the price increase. They should have advocated for me and requested a refund noting that an honest mistake was made. Initially, In my opinion, Regina was determined to deny my refund request and obstruct my communication with the Indo Siren operator.
4. After the Indo Siren operator (Master fleet) agreed to a refund in the form of a voucher, Liveaboard.com did not use that voucher to compensate me.

This dispute did not have to happen. As mentioned Liveaboard.com could have used my Voucher with the next diver. and promptly refunded me. They didn’t have to wait for me to sell my Voucher and then have me transfer ownership of my Voucher to the Buyer. If they had refunded me without delay, no one would have known about the Voucher transaction. The Indo Siren Operator would not have known, even I would not have known, and certainly our dispute wouldn’t have made it to a public forum.

If we could rewrite this story, let’s pretend that I had been explicitly told of the price increase and the reason why (which was beyond Liveaboard.com’s control). I would have complained that the price increase was unfair and not what I signed up for. Liveaboard.com then could have advocated on my behalf for a refund from the Indo Siren Operator. Eventually, the Indo Siren operator would relent and provide a Voucher refund and in turn Liveaboard.com could provide me with a cash refund.

I would be relieved and very thankful that I had booked with Liveaboard.com and not directly with the Indo Siren operator, knowing that I probably could not have negotiated a settlement without their help. I would have given Liveaboard.com a glowing 5 star review and would have definitely recommended booking with them to local dive buddies, this dive forum and diving publications, such as Undercurrent. And I would have encouraged other divers to use a Booking agent such as Liveaboard.com. But, not now.

I wish that would have happened (then I could have easily kept my forum updates to less than the 10,000 character limit).

 

[Jonn]

I wish we still had Kathryn here to give us Liveaboard.com’s side of things. I can see why we don’t though, not even an articulate commenter like her can defend the indefensible, and it made it more fun to read about. When things go bad like this and all your venal sins are dragged out for the world to see, maybe the best course is to buy some more advertising and wait for all the fuss to die down on its own.