Limits: Comfort vs. Training vs. Certification

[lanun]

very thought provoking ...

certification - i need c-cards to get airfills, use nitrox and be allowed to join > 60' dives. then there's other stuff i haven't gotten into yet like penetration dives (not sure if all dive operators check your c-card before letting you jump in to get to the wreck). so i guess in those cases, it's unavoidable.

training - there's the thing about 'purchase the training but earn the certification' which put a different twist on what certification is all about - suddenly the concept of limits expanded to a new dimension for me. it's no longer just 'how to dive ' but rather how to be a safe diver (the drills and what-to-watch-out-fors and what-to-do-in-case-of-whatnots). so i get more training because i want to expand my skill and dive horizon. in order to do that, i need to feel more confortable BEFORE i go any further.

comfort - the post-training (and certification) dives i do that utilizes the knowledge gained during training pre-during and post dive.

since taking more 'advanced' courses, i feel less comfortable about stuff i have done in the past. even 'simple' stuff like diving beyond 60'.

i guess to answer the question ... i now understand better what my limits are because of the training i took, and how in the past i did exceed the limits of my training/experience/etc. and i am more comfortable with how i dive now because the additional training taught me to think about things that could go wrong.

as for the certification - i declined my Deep Diver Specialty c-card because it no longer mattered for me.

 

[Divesherpa]

Hey William,

I didn't mean to be offensive earlier. Upon reading my post, I can see where you could take it as me being an a@@hole. That said, the things you describe were incredibly stupid.

Cheers
Sherpa

 

[willanz]

I would like to think that the responsibility falls on the individual.
Each person needs to make their own decision on every dive. In everyone one of these cases, I made a decision to go dive beyond my certification limits.

Stupid, Yes.

Everyone of the the situations offered some training followed by a dive. Maybe it wasn't backed by an agency but there was certainly some knowledge and practical experience from an experienced diver to a less experienced diver.

All of this training was convuluted second hand information filled with shorcuts. Not the type of training geared towards safety.

My comfort limit was compromised on a couple of the dives. It serves me right for doing dives beyond my certification and following ONE divers opinion on how it should be done.

Why would I write such a post?

A message from another board about getting rid of the instructors and teaching each other how to dive sparked my interest.

I thought I would share my experiences and a comparison of going diving with experienced buddies vs.. going diving with instructors backed by a training agency.

The decision is yours...Just stop and think about how much are you willing to trust your experienced buddies.

I wonder..

How much should we blame the Experienced diver for taking a diver beyond their known certification limits?

What makes them risk their own lives to show some one a bit of wet rocks?

What makes them show some one that the training they received and diving that they have done to get comfortable is worthless because they don't make their less experienced buddies go through it, instead they just take them diving?

Responses to other posts

Net Doc,

These were about a dozen dives that I regret doing. 1300 dives since July 98 (My open water cert date). If I could I would go back and beat myself on the head to stop me from going. I had an Out of Brains incident and didn't have a back up.(good buddy)

I agree with your other comments 100%

WreckWriter,

I did push my limits before and compromised my safety. I don't think you'll see me doing that anymore. This time I have a back up brain. (and she's cute, too)

Dive Sherpa,

Yes, I am an instructor. Not a very good role model, huh?
I do take full responsability for my actions and make them public because eventually everything will be found out. My other option is to keep them on that secret instructor forum...shhhh.

GUE: I am about 2 to 3 years away from reaching that level of diving proficiency to be able to train for them. I am in no rush and have plenty to learn and more diving to do.

None of these dives were a joke. That was a really bad day. It made sense when it was explained to me by a cave diver and he used 2 and 3 stages for his dives that whole week that I met him. After much talking he decided to take me on a dive on the last day of his stay.

I don't think your message was offensive. Thanks for mentioning it. It's kind of hard to take some one seriously on the web. I take it all with a smile. Yes...It was Stupid. I 'll wait to take you as being an a@@hole until I meet you in person.

Spectre,

Throughout the message my idea was to find out if people would think that diving with experienced buddies is considered training.
Even when taken beyond your other limits.
That's why I kept asking.
I wish I could tell you that I experienced an isolated event and that it never happens. Sadly I am wrong. Fortunately not Dead wrong.

 

[Natasha]

I don't post in here often because I am not a cavern or cave diver. But I do read the posts because I am interested in doing cavern training someday.
All of these posts are very interesting to me. Thank you for sharing.
William having met you, but not having ever dove with you, it does sound like you were much more crazy then, and much more conservative now. Lucky for you, things worked out. But as everyone said and I'm sure you agree, we don't want to dive on 'luck', but our own knowledge and training.

 

[WreckWriter]

willanz once bubbled...
WreckWriter,

I did push my limits before and compromised my safety. I don't think you'll see me doing that anymore. This time I have a back up brain. (and she's cute, too)

I've certainly done enough crazy stuff to identify with your stories. Those back-up brains are good. Not only do they give you a reality check when you're about to screw up, they also give you a good reason for not doing so.

Tom

 

[Duncan Price]

That's the way we learn in the UK. You apprentice yourself to someone and learn with your eyes and ears. I highly recommend it.

Duncan

 

[willanz]

Duncan,

You mention "...apprentice yourself to someone and learn with your eyes and ears. "

The people that you are learning from are they instructors backed by an agency?

Or Experienced divers in that environment?

Do you dive with them within your limits until you are ready for more training?

 

[Duncan Price]

willanz once bubbled...
The people that you are learning from are they instructors backed by an agency?

Or Experienced divers in that environment?

Experienced divers who are members of the Cave Diving Group. The CDG is the national body for cave diving in the UK which sets its on training and assessment guidelines, recommends safe practices, liases with landowners other national and regional bodies. Its all voluntary and not for profit. Training is "free" and therefore there is no guarantee that you will qualify. There is no "instructor" grade - in fact, all qualified CDG divers are deemed to have the necessary skills to train others, though it is usually the case the those who assess others for qualification are selected from within this group.

Do you dive with them within your limits until you are ready for more training?

Completely optional. Most novice divers attach themselves to one or more experienced divers at first and then go off and do their own thing often with others. The emphasis is one of continuous personal development i.e. "Doing It! Right?!"

The major difference between the US and the UK is that cave diving here is largely conducted solo and divers learn to rely on their own resources directly from the start. Most sites are pretty much sidemount as well. Furthermore, the majority of cave divers are largely recruited from the dry caving community rather than diving community.

In the UK, cave diving is a hobby whereas in the US, it is a business.

Duncan

 

[MikeFerrara]

Duncan,

Thanks for the post. My cave "training"was through a NACD instructor. Most of my cave dives are in fairly large caves (backmount) with fair to great vis and we dive in teams. I guess this is typical of US cave diving. Recently however we have been involved in some projects which involve sumps. The first one we dived had good enough vis for a team of two to manage and was big enough for backmount. The second sump was near zero vis. Awfull hard to communicate with a team mate in zero vis. Also very tough to lay line while in touch contact. To say the least this is a real culture shock and calls for completely different techniques. Hence our recent interest in sidemount diving.

 

[willanz]

Thanks for the info.

Duncan, You guys do it differently.(DID)

After all the posts and info, I figure:

Comfort limits are developed from going diving.

Training limits are developed from learning all from different resources(classes, experienced divers, books, video, internet....)

Certification limits are developed by completeing training with an instructor backed by an agency.

I think scuba is a self regulating hobby/sport. Those that own/manage the dive sites(landowners), dive boats, dive operations, dive shops have the last say on who gets to do what.

It brings us back to...if you don't have the certification regardless of how much training and comfort you may have then you are out of luck.

And yes...there is a problem with those that have a certification and have blown off their training and don't realize they are past their comfort limits until it's too late.


"In the UK, cave diving is a hobby whereas in the US, it is a business."

I wonder why we get a bunch of UK divers coming to the US for training when they can do it for FREE back home?