Likelihood of gear malfunctions?

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I'd go as far as to say that well-maintained gear will outlast a typically-maintained diver :D

Best wishes.


I agree, I have several regs that are 1 year younger than I am-52, they are in better shape than they were new (new and improved parts) and show no signs of going down hill......sure wish I could say the same about me. :)

There have been some good posts on this topic recently (and some heated discussions :D ).

It seems like the folks who are the most "schooled" in regulator repair and who regularly service their own equipment are often the ones who "Don't fix it if it ain't broke", and the folks who have not learned the "dark secrets" of regulator repair and function will loudly advocate for annual overhaul.

I'm coming to the belief that regulator diagnosis and treatment should follow a conservative course: In the absence of overt symptoms, non-invasive testing and routine maintenance care is the treatment of choice :D

In layman's terms: What Thal said :D

Best wishes.


As one of the practitioners of the black arts, I totally agree.
 
I have spent my entire adult life maintaining and repairing stuff for a living. The simple fact of life is, things wear out.

Malfunctions occur when a part fails during normal use. This may be an unexpected failure, such as a part that was improperly installed during routine maintenance, or a part that was deficient and did not last as long as it was supposed to, or it may be a failure due to "stretching" the time between maintenance.

In maintenance, there is the idea of identifying perishable parts and their normal safe life spans. For instance, we have oxygen monitors measuring the O2 content in compressor rooms here. These monitors use a chemical fuel cell to detect the free oxygen in the air. These cells are rated to last one year. However, towards the end of that year, we find that they start tapering off rapidly and have to be regularly recalibrated to prevent false alarms. As such, we have them on a six month replacement schedule. It is both safer and more cost-effective to replace them sooner, than to constantly deal with false alarms and the inherent risk that a real unsafe atmosphere condition will occur and people will just assume it's another false alarm.

Sadly, some people think of regularly scheduled maintenance as nothing more than a way for shops to get money from you. In the case of some unscrupulous shops, that may be true (particularly for automobile maintenance), but when you find a trustworthy shop, regular maintenance is not only a good idea, but the most cost-effective means of preventing malfunctions. The expense of regular maintenance is well-worth the investment if it helps guarantee that your dream dive trip isn't going to end early (or worse, in crisis) because of an unexpected equipment failure.

If we wait until it fails to fix it, we'll probably find that it fails at the worst possible time.
 
I have spent my entire adult life maintaining and repairing stuff for a living. The simple fact of life is, things wear out.
Yes, things wear out.
Malfunctions occur when a part fails during normal use. This may be an unexpected failure, such as a part that was improperly installed during routine maintenance, or a part that was deficient and did not last as long as it was supposed to, or it may be a failure due to "stretching" the time between maintenance.
As far as I know there is no "real" data concerning mean time to failure for either regulators or BCs.
In maintenance, there is the idea of identifying perishable parts and their normal safe life spans. For instance, we have oxygen monitors measuring the O2 content in compressor rooms here. These monitors use a chemical fuel cell to detect the free oxygen in the air. These cells are rated to last one year. However, towards the end of that year, we find that they start tapering off rapidly and have to be regularly recalibrated to prevent false alarms. As such, we have them on a six month replacement schedule. It is both safer and more cost-effective to replace them sooner, than to constantly deal with false alarms and the inherent risk that a real unsafe atmosphere condition will occur and people will just assume it's another false alarm.
Your example is not an applicable one, those chemical reactions are well known, thoroughly studied and, as a result, quite predictable Regulator soft parts and springs are not and, in any case, are quite variable.
Sadly, some people think of regularly scheduled maintenance as nothing more than a way for shops to get money from you. In the case of some unscrupulous shops, that may be true (particularly for automobile maintenance), but when you find a trustworthy shop, regular maintenance is not only a good idea, but the most cost-effective means of preventing malfunctions. The expense of regular maintenance is well-worth the investment if it helps guarantee that your dream dive trip isn't going to end early (or worse, in crisis) because of an unexpected equipment failure.
I think I can say with confidence that you have no data whatsoever to substantiate that claim, as such it is naught but fearrmongering.
If we wait until it fails to fix it, we'll probably find that it fails at the worst possible time.
Catastrophic failures as a result of deferred maintenance are virtually unheard of, but catastrophic failures immediately following scheduled maintenance appear to be rather common occurrences. The only advantage that I can see for performing scheduled regulator maintenance is that you will be on your guard for the first few dives when the regulator goes back into service, rather than surprised by the one in a billion(?) occurrence of a "natural" catastrophic failure.
 
Thass, you sound like some of the engineers we work with here.

Mostly, the ones who fail to recognize that I've been a technician for over thirty years, and I've seen ample cases of problems arising from skipping over regular maintenance.

Keep in mind that, in my job, I'm paid the same whether I work on the equipment or not. It's no skin off my nose if the engineer lets me do the preventative maintenance on his equipment or not; I'm paid by the hour and not by the job. I'm just as happy to be left alone in my lab, as to be elbows deep in equipment that's older than my grown children.

While there may not be charted empirical data on the deterioration rate of o-rings, for example, a good tech will soon see a pattern emerging on the equipment he works on. In an area like Tucson, such rubber parts tend to break down faster than they would in cooler, more humid areas. Our hot, dry air is not conducive to rubber and plastic parts holding up well. "Dry rot" is common around here, and a good reason for having such parts inspected and replaced on a regular basis.

A failure doesn't have to be catastrophic to cause problems. A cheap part that would be easy to replace - if you had it - can bring a variety of activities to a halt, or at least, take much of the fun out of them.

You can call it fear mongering if you want, but just like regular maintenance of an automobile helps prevent premature wear of the engine, or failure of the brakes, or a loss of power because of clogged filters, or whatever, regular maintenance of scuba gear can keep things working properly.

Perhaps you should read you own signature line. I've been in repair and maintenance since I was 18 years old, performing such tasks for the Air Force, for a major defense contractor, for a cable television company, and on my own possessions. I've had 31 years of uncomfortable thinking on this subject, so I'm rather comfortable in my opinion on it.
 
Thass, you sound like some of the engineers we work with here.
Perhaps you should pay some attention to what they're telling you?
Mostly, the ones who fail to recognize that I've been a technician for over thirty years, and I've seen ample cases of problems arising from skipping over regular maintenance.
I do not doubt you, but you are moving from the specific (in this case exhaustion of a chemical reaction) to the general (all regular scheduled mainteneance) back to a specific (regulators) that you have a small fraction of my experience with.
Keep in mind that, in my job, I'm paid the same whether I work on the equipment or not. It's no skin off my nose if the engineer lets me do the preventative maintenance on his equipment or not; I'm paid by the hour and not by the job. I'm just as happy to be left alone in my lab, as to be elbows deep in equipment that's older than my grown children.
It sounds to me like you have a workplace issue that has no relation to our discussion here.
While there may not be charted empirical data on the deterioration rate of o-rings, for example, a good tech will soon see a pattern emerging on the equipment he works on. In an area like Tucson, such rubber parts tend to break down faster than they would in cooler, more humid areas. Our hot, dry air is not conducive to rubber and plastic parts holding up well. "Dry rot" is common around here, and a good reason for having such parts inspected and replaced on a regular basis.
I'm not saying that parts should not be replaced. I'm not saying that regulators should not be inspected. I'm saying that yearly rebuilding is wasteful and there is no empirical evidence to support it. In point of fact, most of us who have looked inside of hundreds of regulators per year or been responsible for those regulator's maintenance do not support the idea of a yearly rebuild, rather we favor a time and use based inspection schedule combined with performance monitoring by the end user.
A failure doesn't have to be catastrophic to cause problems. A cheap part that would be easy to replace - if you had it - can bring a variety of activities to a halt, or at least, take much of the fun out of them.
If you have a trip coming up it is only reasonable to have an inspection done and any needed servicing far enough in advance to permit a few dives prior to departure since there's a much higher likelihood of failure post servicing.
You can call it fear mongering if you want, but just like regular maintenance of an automobile helps prevent premature wear of the engine, or failure of the brakes, or a loss of power because of clogged filters, or whatever, regular maintenance of scuba gear can keep things working properly.
Reulators are not engines or brakes or fuel systems; it is illogical to extrapolate from a car to a regulator.
Perhaps you should read you own signature line. I've been in repair and maintenance since I was 18 years old, performing such tasks for the Air Force, for a major defense contractor, for a cable television company, and on my own possessions. I've had 31 years of uncomfortable thinking on this subject, so I'm rather comfortable in my opinion on it.
You have been operating in a "need it or not" servicing environment on systems that both extensive failure mode analysis, part tracking, and mean time to failure testing and data gathering are done.

If we must perform the obligatory logical fallacy known as an "appeal to authority," then consider that I've had more than thirty years of being responsible for hundreds of sets of exactly the type of equipment that we are discussing here, not systems that have little or no resemblance to diving equipment. In my early days I was a firm believer in yearly rebuilds, but experience has taught me that, at least with respect to regulators, that approach is both wasteful and creates more problems than it solves. So either I'm way off base, or the community is being sold a bill of goods by someone, with folks like you an honest regulator techs being mislead down the primrose path.
 
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Hoomi,

The points you are making in your posts are perfectly logical and reasonable for most mechanical devices. Regular scheduled service should reduce the likelihood of mechanical failures, and for cars and other machinery it does.

But ask around this board, other scuba boards, or the next time you are on a crowded dive boat, and you’ll probably find that the highest incidence of regulator failure occurs after annual overhaul. With good techs, this is not a problem, but not all regulator techs are created equally, and regulator problems immediately after annual service seem to happen too often.

The “failure mode” for regulators that need servicing is typically the gradual failure of their “soft bits” (o-rings, soft seats). This is usually manifested in the 1st stage as a “creep” in IP pressure, and in the 2nd stage as either a gradual “leak” (slight free flow) and/or degradation of breathing performance. These symptoms develop over time, can be easily tested for, and necessary service performed long before a true “failure” occurs.

The “failure mode” of just-serviced regulators is usually a free flow which is just an annoying dive-ender, but at times can be quite dramatic (2nd stage literally falling apart underwater, 2nd stage demand lever falling off, 2nd stage adjustment knob “blowing off” underwater when the diver turned it…. The list goes on).

Regulators will require service. O-rings and seats do wear out. But at least one manufacturer recommends service every 2 years… and I seriously doubt their o-rings and soft seats are significantly different than the other regulators out there…

Proper care and proper storage go a long way to preventing problems. Routine inspection and simple testing will detect problems. All divers should learn how to do the inspection/testing, and then can make an informed decision regarding service.

Best wishes.
 
Reulators are not engines or brakes or fuel systems; it is illogical to extrapolate from a car to a regulator..

Why? Mechanical devices are all subject to wear, abuse and the necessity for maintenance. Only the frequency and severity, based on operational conditions changes.

..consider that I've had more than thirty years of being responsible for hundreds of sets of exactly the type of equipment that we are discussing here,

OK, but others may have a little mechanical experience as well..:wink:
 
Why? Mechanical devices are all subject to wear, abuse and the necessity for maintenance. Only the frequency and severity, based on operational conditions changes.
Extreme heat is one major factor, as is metal to metal contract and the need for lubricated bearings ... need I continue?
OK, but others may have a little mechanical experience as well..:wink:
The entire question of "mechanical experience" is, as I observed, a [wiki]logical fallacy[/wiki] known as an argumentum ad verecundiam or "appeal to authority." But there are at least four logical fallacies at work in his argument, one is the aforementioned, another is fearmongering (argumentum ad baculum), and we have "affirming the consequent," or modus ponens, as well as extrapolation way outside of the experiential data set (non sequitur) since internal combustion engines have little more in common with regulators beyond both being mechanical and having cast and machined parts.

Woops ... I guess I have to plead guilty to argumentum verbosium. :D
 
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I am absolutely certain that things like o-rings and seats have a lifespan. I am sure that it is better to replace those things before they fail. I am also sure that not everyone who services scuba equipment is well-trained or meticulous. (The most annoying malfunction we've had was after a reg got serviced . . . )

As a result of the above paragraph, one of my 2009 goals is to learn to service my own equipment, so I can do it at intervals that suit me, and I know the person working on the stuff, even if she's a bit inexperienced, has my best interests totally at heart :)
 
There have been some good posts on this topic recently (and some heated discussions :D ).

It seems like the folks who are the most "schooled" in regulator repair and who regularly service their own equipment are often the ones who "Don't fix it if it ain't broke", and the folks who have not learned the "dark secrets" of regulator repair and function will loudly advocate for annual overhaul.

I'm coming to the belief that regulator diagnosis and treatment should follow a conservative course: In the absence of overt symptoms, non-invasive testing and routine maintenance care is the treatment of choice :D

In layman's terms: What Thal said :D

Best wishes.

So true, if you don't know the "dark secrets" you can only believe what you hear which is if you don't service it every year you will die.
I have been servicing my regulators myself since I started diving, usually on the as needed schedule. I have not had any failure that was anything more than just a nuisance, such as a minor leak usually after several years use.
A good clean and rinse after every day of use is the best maintenance you can do.
 

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