Light Monkey 21 Watt can light...LED vs. HID.

[MikeRD03]

Hi Lucca,

Yea, the resolution of the burn chart were not so good this time. Here is a download link for viewing all of them in high resolution: http://www.tauchfunzel.de/datei/Brenncharts.pdf

I got my hands on this new HW light at the last Boat show. It´s a huge 80W LED emitter inside with a really big canister. If you ask me LED light above 40W power are nonsense besides big video lights. It´s a step in the wrong direction. I don´t want this big 50W halogen lights canisters back.
And as u said - street light LEDs are good for street lighting, not for diving lights. There are impossible to focus tightly.

@Pullmyfinger: Nice to read u like Germany. Most of the best diving lights in the world are made here.

bye,
Mike

 

[lucca brassi]

Thanks ! Finn light have linear regulator? Almost no ripple current on led?

 

[MikeRD03]

No, I don´t think so. A well designed switching regulator has no ripple. Too much current ripple is a design flaw in my eyes. For example look at the burnchart of the VB-50. It has no ripple, too and here I´m sure it is a switching regulator.

bye,
Mike

 

[cerich]

or a HOG 21 Watt 9 amp with 4 hour burn time for $1,199...just saying LOL

Thanks guys,

I'm leaning towards an HID light. I guess the choice will really end up coming down to which battery to go with.

In comparing the Light Monkey to the Halcyon:

Light Monkey 21 Watt HID from Dive Right In Scuba. It comes with a 3 watt L.M. back up light as an extra incentive. I already have 2 Photon Torpedos, but it's still a nice extra.
5.7 Amp Li-Po..........2.5 Hour burn time..........$1,180
10 Amp li-Po............5 Hour burn time............$1,380

Halcyon 21 watt HID from Extreme Exposure.
4.5 Amp NiMh..........2 hour burn time.............$1,295
9 Amp NiMh.............4 hour burn time.............$1,495

The choice is looking like battery type/burn time vs. cost. I'm sure there are other factors between the two brands, but for now that's the main thing that stands out.

I've read somewhere that one brand of HID bulb is more durable than another. Does the Halcyon light come with the better/more durable brand of bulb? I'm just trying to figure why the higher price.

Are there any other differences between these two lights? I can only make a comparison by looking at pictures online, since I'm not near a dealer.

I'm wanting to stay under $1,200, so it looks like I'll be choosing the shorter burn time/smaller battery version of which ever light I decide to get. I'll be on the lookout for a discount when it comes time to squeeze the trigger on a light.

Thanks for your thoughts.


Mitch

 

[HenrikBP]

I went through the same considerations a couple of years ago: HID vs. LED, and went with an MB-Sub VB-50 light.

My reasoning at the time:

- smaller light head (shorter mostly - diameter is about the same as a 21W HID)
- same (or longer) burn time with no change in light output for the duration
- *much* less "delicate" light head and components

and specific for the VB-50; an actual variable beam. 21W HID lights can change focus, but when going to "wide" you get a light corona, a dark circle, and the an uneven spot in the center - kinda like the old Maglites. The wide beam on the VB-50 is very even.

As for output, yes, a fully charged 21W HID will outshine the VB-50 for a time, but as the battery drains down, the HID light output drops off. Dive X-tras did a light comparison test, and the 21 W HID was brighter in the "hot spot" for about 50 minutes. After that the VB-50 - since the output stays constant - was even with the HID. Btw. it was my VB-50 they used for the testing.

Dive Xtras - Dive Xtras

The weak spot (pun intended ) of LED in general and the VB-50 as well, is the beam itself. Even on full narrow, I would like the VB-50 narrower still. The wider "spot" beam scatters sooner than the HID "light saber", and as such doesn't reach as far. It has nothing to do with HID technology vs. LED technology. It's simply a matter of beam spread. So the LED is less able to "reach out and touch" someone. The wider spot beam of the LED also creates more back-scatter (light reflected back at you by particles in the water) than the narrow HID beam. This can become an issue in low viz/lots of particles in the water. Of course in such situations, your team would much closer together so less reach would be needed, and the VB-50 can easily be switched to 35% output (I believe), which would help the back-scatter.

Of course, if the beam of the VB-50 (or any other LED light) could be narrowed down, the hot spot intensity would go up accordingly, and the lights as far as output, reach etc. would be even, or maybe even leaning slightly in LED favor. But as Lucca mentioned, the problem LED lights are facing is the physical size of the LED chip.

All in all I'm still happy I went with the VB-50, as the lens - for me - partly makes up for the lights' shortcomings as compared to HID.

As for battery size/run time, I've been told that rechargeable batteries don't like to be run all the way down. So it was recommended for battery longevity, to get a battery that will last you a day of diving while only dropping to ~50% charge. No personal knowledge or experience.

Question: of the Lithium technologies, there have been a few battery explosions with LiPo batteries - one fairly recently. How do LiMn batteries fare in that regard.

Henrik

 

[Tejasmtb]

Go LED, the ballast on the HID is a sensitive failure point. The light beam will be stronger but I can't stand the ballast. I have dealt with this in recent years with my off road lights and with the recent improvements in LED technology it makes more sense to go that route. LED will have less draw so it should have a better burn time too. The ballast on the HID lights is usually audible/noisy too, not sure about the ones used on this specific canister light though.

Best,

Tejas

 

[The Chairman]

While I carry a 10W LED as a backup, nothing has the punch in murkyish water as my Light Monkey 21W HID. I love them.

 

[MikeRD03]

Hi Henrik,

I´ve read through the light test you have linked from Drive-Xtras and I have to say I can not believe some of the presented data there. Of course you have to be careful when a manufacturer tests products against his own.

I have burncharts and other test data of many HID diving light including the actual Halcyon Explorer and the Agir 21W HID. Both burncharts proves that an intensity degrade do not happen within the first 50 min. The Explorer is 100% stable over its hole burntime and the Agir goes down very slightly.

Have a look on your own:
Halcyon Explorer: http://www.tauchfunzel.de/datei/burnchart HALCYON 21W HID.JPG
Agir 21W HID: http://www.tauchfunzel.de/datei/burnchart AGIR 21W HID.JPG

Another interesting point is the typical brightness fluctuation of HID bulbs. Every HID has it and you see it in my burncharts very clearly. But where is it in the chart from Dive-Xtra? Hmm..
Or have a look at the maximum brighness. Dive-Xtra measures brightness im 3m distance - unusual but it can be converted into the 1m distance brightness. Here the X-Ray is around 18.000 lux maximum. The Explorer ist around 30.000 lux. Wired.

So be careful what you believe.

Bye,
Mike

 

[HenrikBP]

Hi Mike,

You are absolutely correct - comparative testing should be done by an un-biased party and even then be taken with a grain of salt.

That said, the lacking brightness fluctuations are explained in their test set-up:

Dive Xtras - Dive Xtras

They only recorded output numbers at 5, 25 and 45 minutes, where your test seem to be working with continuous output metering. Same for their brightness numbers. Most likely just a simple point measurement at the times indicated. So you're correct, it's a flawed test set-up that may only allow comparison of numbers within the test itself - and even then may have errors. I'm not even sure you could extrapolate numbers to compare with yours or other studies and your points about the test are of course correct.

But in Dive-Xtras defense, at least they're trying to present a real-life comparison. Not just calculations based on HID/LED specifications. I have no dog in this fight, but from what I've heard about the company, I doubt Dive X-tras would "doctor" their numbers to make themselves look "pretty".

I would still go LED for the reasons I mentioned - but would love an adjustable beam can light with a spot beam spread of 2° - 3° and an even wide beam - one can always dream

Henrik

 

[Wayne at DiveSeekers]

I swear by the Halcyon 21w HID! Due to our local conditions here in the North East (New Jersey Wrecks), this is the main light that my students and I use. Awesome reliability great burn time and no issues.