Lets look at things from a different angle.

[The Kraken]

Now that's about what I would consider the 1st commandment of diving, Warnberg.

the K

 

[pilot fish]

The only person I can trust with my safety is ME.... If I get into an OOA situation it is my fault, if my buddy is there to assist me, BONUS otherwise I better be prepared to take care of myself..... Ultimately I am responsible for me

Well, yeah, if you're OOA due to poor gas management then it is your fault. But what if it's due to gear failure, or some other reason not of your doing? It's nice to have a buddy close by as an additionla level of safety. Pick a good buddy, BE A GOOD BUDDY.

 

[tjmills]

Pilot Fish got me thinking (ouch!)

First, let me make clear my level of newbieness: I have passed OW and I went on one dive vacation consisting of eight dives with an experienced couple and a dive master (a really good divemaster in my opinion).

The couple I was with are experienced and generally went off on their own. They were seldom within 10 yards of me. In effect, they were not buddies to me. Seeing this on the irst dive I teneded to stick close to the DM on subsequent dives. It wasn't until the final day of diving that I realized I should stick REALLY close to the DM if we were to be of any use to each other.

So the other couple were off doing their own thing even though we had agreed to dive as a team. That means I was not there for them just as much as they were not there for me. My fault for not correcting that after the first dive.

The undercurrent to Pilot Fish's posts I think is "if you don't rely on your buddy because they are too far away, too distracted, too WHATEVER, then how can they POSSIBLY rely on YOU?" After all, if I can't get to my buddy's octo, chances are pretty darn good he can't get to mine either. I am as unreliable as he - BY DEFINITION. You are either both buddies or you are just two fish in the sea.

That's a very good point. How many of us think we are great buddies but our buddies (from the cattle boat or resort) are bozos? If I am not within arm's reach then you better order me some floppy shoes and a red nose as well (do fins count as clown shoes?).

This one post is certainly going to change the way I dive next time (just over a week away!). I WILL stick like glue and if the buddy doesn't like it then I'll get another one. (Actually I am likely to hire a guide for awhile but even then I will there side by side).

Thanks for the perspective Pilot Fish

I think you will find that you don't need to be within arms reach of your buddy and it is almost impossible to do this without a rope connecting you. What is important that you check on each other often and that you are never out of reach from each other from a breath of air and that you know exactly where each other are. Plan the dive and dive the plan even if its just a simple plan.

You should also completely and absolutely disclose your newness to the DM and the group. VERY important.

I agree with others that the rescue course is highly recommended. Again....its usually about panic that is the real problem for all and especially newbies.

 

[tjmills]

The implication here seems to be that team diving and self-reliance are mutually exclusive ... but they are not.

Each member of a buddy team can be, and should be, capable of getting him/herself out of most situations that a diver might reasonably anticipate happening ... just as a solo diver would. The smart diver will have practiced these scenarios, both in terms of self-rescue and in terms of anticipating and/or helping out a buddy.

We cannot anticipate all possible combinations of things that can go wrong. And for that reason one shouldn't rely solely on the buddy, but rather view the buddy system as adding a layer of redundancy ... and therefore safety ... that the solo diver (hopefully) acknowledges doesn't exist, and therefore prepares for and/or accepts as within acceptable limits.

Where the buddy system breaks down is in the fact that many (most?) OW classes will tell the student that they should dive with a buddy ... but not teach them proper techniques for doing so. Communication is reduced to a few hand signals. Situational awareness isn't discussed at all. Neither is proper gas management. Equipment configurations often don't take into account that you need to be able to reach your cutting device with either hand. “Lead-follow” buddy formations are taught, rather than side-by-side … increasing the possibility of buddy separation (and therefore the need to teach skills like CESA, which assumes that you’ve somehow managed to lose your dive buddy and subsequently run out of air).

Point being that self-sufficiency and buddy diving are not intended to be alternate approaches to the same goal … there are safety advantages to using both … but that is only true if, (a) the buddy system is properly taught and adhered to, and (b) both divers have committed themselves to developing proper self-sufficiency and self-rescue techniques.

Despite common misconceptions to the contrary, THAT is what the team approach to diving is all about.

… Bob (Grateful Diver)

Very well stated regardless of what kind/type of diver you are.

 

[TSandM]

Diving with buddies should not remove my individual skills – separation will naturally reduce the collective ‘powers’ we might have.

Beautifully said, piikki.

 

[pilot fish]

tjmills, I answered you what I thought a dive buddy should be. Can you tell me your thoughts on that, what YOU feel a dive buddy's role is? Again, I say, it is an additional level of safety for both divers. Your own safety is of primary concern but you must also ,after that, be a good dive buddy. Do you agree ?

 

[Storm]

Or just having a realy bad day.

Sig block says it all

 

[tjmills]

tjmills, I answered you what I thought a dive buddy should be. Can you tell me your thoughts on that, what YOU feel a dive buddy's role is? Again, I say, it is an additional level of safety for both divers. Your own safety is of primary concern but you must also ,after that, be a good dive buddy. Do you agree ?

I certainly do and don't have any arguement with what you said.

Why did I ask? Because all too often people get in the habit of blaming everything on their buddy and they become too dependent rather than improving their own skills and comfort level in the water. I think that many organizations also don't teach buddy skills well nor do they set the expectations of what that really is in the first place. Just like in a previous post, having someone within arms reach of you for the entire dive is not realistic or even practical yet if their expectation is that and it doesn't happen....the stress level and possibility of panic has already started. Many times I have heard/read divers expectations that a buddy should watch them every second of the dive...again, not possible but their expectations are as such and therefore they have a bad buddy and when it doesn't happen....stress and the possibility of panic. This list goes on longer than I care to type but I think you get what I mean.

Keeping an eye on your buddy regularly, being within close proximity to aid and being able to assist are all important things to me. Having expectations that are unrealistic is dangerous IMHO as they bring on stress which escalates the possibility of panic. Panic is what really scares the hell out of me as almost nothing can help you or them in that situation

 

[matt_unique]

The implication here seems to be that team diving and self-reliance are mutually exclusive ... but they are not.
...

Bob (Grateful Diver)

I do agree with a number of aspects of your post.

Team diving and self-reliance are mutually exclusive in my opinion. I can think of a million examples of this but to be brief. We're drift diving together and the plan is to float a bag to signal the boat 'all is well' and we're doing drift deco stops with the boat following. It is my understanding that each team member carries only one reel and one lift bag to adhere to what it is we're talking about here (DIR). You're a better team diver than I am and I take off - we get separated. You proceed to float your bag and your reel jams - you let her fly. With the team diving approach - you are reliant upon your buddy for his/her lift bag/reel.

We're diving to 50' max on single tanks for a 30-minute profile (NDL profile). Your HP hose blows and you empty your tank. The team approach dictates that your backup air supply is your buddy. With the above scenario you are now dependant upon your buddy for air unless you choose to attempt a CESA.

Solo divers and DIR/team divers define reliance differently.

--Matt

 

[tjmills]

I do agree with a number of aspects of your post.

Team diving and self-reliance are mutually exclusive in my opinion. I can think of a million examples of this but to be brief. We're drift diving together and the plan is to float a bag to signal the boat 'all is well' and we're doing drift deco stops with the boat following. It is my understanding that each team member carries only one reel and one lift bag to adhere to what it is we're talking about here (DIR). You're a better team diver than I am and I take off - we get separated. You proceed to float your bag and your reel jams - you let her fly. With the team diving approach - you are reliant upon your buddy for his/her lift bag/reel.

We're diving to 50' max on single tanks for a 30-minute profile (NDL profile). Your HP hose blows and you empty your tank. The team approach dictates that your backup air supply is your buddy. With the above scenario you are now dependant upon your buddy for air unless you choose to attempt a CESA.

Solo divers and DIR/team divers define reliance differently.

--Matt

I don't think this thread was meant as a "solo diver" or "DIR" debate. Please correct me if I am wrong.