Lets look at things from a different angle.

[MXGratefulDiver]

This bring us back to my favorite topic: Gas Mangement.

In an emergency, what are the chances that with an average pair of 2 recently minted OW divers, the buddy actually has enough gas for both?

Or would there now be 2 OOA divers instead of one?

Terry

I would say that's your most likely scenario for having both divers OOA/LOA ... for the following reasons:

1. Absolutely no training in gas management beyond "end the dive with 500 psi" ... and perhaps "check your gauges regularly".

2. Typically they'll be diving single AL80's, rather than larger, more expensive cylinders.

3. New divers tend to use gas faster than experienced divers.

4. Boyle's Law ... and an incomplete understanding of the consequences thereof.

The solution ... more complete OW training, mentorship, practice.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[captain]

Multiple failures are impossible to plan for.

As I teach my students, don't be OOA and OOB at the same time or you are OOL.

In thousands of dives I have yet to see this scenario. If you don't push your limits (air/depth/time) you will have many years of safe diving. If you constantly fret over "what-ifs" in an open water diving environment, then you should seek professional psychiatric help or stop diving. Diving isn't for everyone and "scubaphobia" is a definite contraindication to participate in this wonderful sport.

We can end this thread here, Net Doc nailed it, I give him a 10

 

[Zoomer]

1. Absolutely no training in gas management beyond "end the dive with 500 psi" ... and perhaps "check your gauges regularly".

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Dang and all this time I thought it was 50 psi or was it 5 psi?

 

[grazie42]

No! thats 50BAR! which of course is more correct than 500psi...or 50 for that matter

 

[dbulmer]

WebMonkey,
Having been in an OOA in Cuba with my dad - I was at 0 bar - he was at 50 bar at 80 feet. At the time I was on dive 13 - he was at about 150. We were both inept - NWG expressed exactly in his 4 points how we got there but something else to consider because it gets worse. We were told to indicate when were were at 100bar and 50 bar which we dutifully did. At no point did we even think to ascend - we continued to follow the DM till I got to 0. I did not monitor my gas - I did not communicate with my dad, I did nothing I was a complete idiot! . At 0 bar, I took a breath, swam about 20 feet blowing bubbles and had an octopus handed to me and then we ascended up a shotline . My dad had about 5 bar when we got to the surface.

To this day my dad has been in denial about that incident arguing we were not in any danger to which I reply Bollocks !

My OOA was dumbness of the first order - I also learned the hard way that the diver is ultimately responsible for his/her safety and that blind trust in anyone is not a wise course of action. While buddy skills are important, they should never be a crutch for poor skill and judgement. Another point is: That it's not sufficient to just receive training, you also have to constantly evaluate and re-evaluate your individual skill and commit yourself to practicing what you were taught.

On that day I was guilty of all kind of sins - take your pick. Since then I have tried to repent for my transgressions - I've failed in many ways but I'll keep on trying to become a competent diver.

 

[mdb]

WebMonkey,
Having been in an OOA in Cuba with my dad - I was at 0 bar - he was at 50 bar at 80 feet. At the time I was on dive 13 - he was at about 150. We were both inept - NWG expressed exactly in his 4 points how we got there but something else to consider because it gets worse. We were told to indicate when were were at 100bar and 50 bar which we dutifully did. At no point did we even think to ascend - we continued to follow the DM till I got to 0. I did not monitor my gas - I did not communicate with my dad, I did nothing I was a complete idiot! . At 0 bar, I took a breath, swam about 20 feet blowing bubbles and had an octopus handed to me and then we ascended up a shotline . My dad had about 5 bar when we got to the surface.

To this day my dad has been in denial about that incident arguing we were not in any danger to which I reply Bollocks !

My OOA was dumbness of the first order - I also learned the hard way that the diver is ultimately responsible for his/her safety and that blind trust in anyone is not a wise course of action. While buddy skills are important, they should never be a crutch for poor skill and judgement. Another point is: That it's not sufficient to just receive training, you also have to constantly evaluate and re-evaluate your individual skill and commit yourself to practicing what you were taught.

On that day I was guilty of all kind of sins - take your pick. Since then I have tried to repent for my transgressions - I've failed in many ways but I'll keep on trying to become a competent diver.

dbulmer: Good post. Thank you. It is always a plus when real world dives are put forward for us to consider. I agee with you that: "I also learned the hard way that the diver is ultimately responsible for his/her safety and that blind trust in anyone is not a wise course of action." Maybe your statement will be the best thing that comes from this interesting thread.

 

[isurus]

WebMonkey,
Having been in an OOA in Cuba with my dad - I was at 0 bar - he was at 50 bar at 80 feet. At the time I was on dive 13 - he was at about 150. We were both inept - NWG expressed exactly in his 4 points how we got there but something else to consider because it gets worse. We were told to indicate when were were at 100bar and 50 bar which we dutifully did. At no point did we even think to ascend - we continued to follow the DM till I got to 0. I did not monitor my gas - I did not communicate with my dad, I did nothing I was a complete idiot! . At 0 bar, I took a breath, swam about 20 feet blowing bubbles and had an octopus handed to me and then we ascended up a shotline . My dad had about 5 bar when we got to the surface.

To this day my dad has been in denial about that incident arguing we were not in any danger to which I reply Bollocks !

My OOA was dumbness of the first order - I also learned the hard way that the diver is ultimately responsible for his/her safety and that blind trust in anyone is not a wise course of action. While buddy skills are important, they should never be a crutch for poor skill and judgement. Another point is: That it's not sufficient to just receive training, you also have to constantly evaluate and re-evaluate your individual skill and commit yourself to practicing what you were taught.

On that day I was guilty of all kind of sins - take your pick. Since then I have tried to repent for my transgressions - I've failed in many ways but I'll keep on trying to become a competent diver.

a very honest post and you've obviously took advatage of the situation you were in and learned the lessons presented. for me the key is this - if i can't be smart/bothered/worried enough to ensure i dive safely why should i assume anyone else will be? there are any number of buddy nullifying hypotheticals we could talk about most of which are thankfully rare but the reality is even with the perfect buddy you should be able to look after yourself when most things go wrong.

 

[elmbruker]

"You would find most of what I'm talking about in the NAUI Master Diver manual, as you would in other non-DIR diving publications. So let's not side-track the issue with agency talk, OK? "

Actually, you'll find it in most OW "basic stuff" manuals. Would like to see a OOA emergency that could not be prevented from what is taught in basic OW. What is the rate of people running out of air(own fault), compared to failed regulator emergency's?

"To this day my dad has been in denial about that incident arguing we were not in any danger to which I reply Bollocks ! "

Nothing could be more true, it's unfortunate that our pride can dissolution us from the dangers we put ourself in. I'm impressed that your so level headed, and didn't blame the DM/agency for your OOA situation. So many others would of not seen this as their mistake. But most of them are the people you pass on your way to work, as they are walking down the highway with a gas can in their hand. Pissed because their wife, son, daughter, driving instructor, etc. Didn't fill the car up!

Check air!
Bruke

 

[Gary D.]

If your post is directed at me, I was responding to a question from NW. Are you asking all those involved in the solo/team dicussion to take it elsewhere? I could be misunderstanding you completely.

No diver has the mindset and skills to get out of every conceivable problem including some of what you described above. If you're diving and all of a sudden you're scooped up in a commercial drag net most likely it's all over. One would be foolish to think they could get out of every jam, including the best solo divers or the best DIR team. I'm thinking about the most likely challenges I will encounter when I reference gear and mindset above, not a mindset or gear configuration that I think will get me out of every possible jam.

--Matt

Not at all. It just got posted after yours. Some were fixated on the two examples I used is all. I just wanted people to think about What if something happened to both divers where you can't help one another. Are people prepaired for it. Not try and think out every possible problem that might arise.

Gary D.

 

[Cacia]

Burke ,

"To this day my dad has been in denial about that incident arguing we were not in any danger to which I reply Bollocks !


and the bigger question. Can you really grow up normal with a father like that? ( Do we have the same father?) My dad and my mom were very unique. Your perception of danger goes back to their attitudes. My "auto -safety, don't trust anyone with your life" attitude stems from having to survive childhood with parents like that.

Personally, I think trusting another diver, in most situations is a very bad idea. Now, if you are cave diving and train together and develop a discipline....that's different.

It is very curious how this topic always seems to touch an evangelistic nerve. We never discuss, should you fly your plane alone, should you ride your horse alone, should you swim laps alone, should you hike alone, sail alone, what makes diving so special?