Lets look at things from a different angle.

[MXGratefulDiver]

Definitely agree with Matt on this. There is a different mindset once you start seriously and purposely diving solo as opposed to "oops where did joe go?"

The only issue I have with this is that you make it sound like your only choices are to dive with an incompetent dive buddy, or dive solo. There are other choices ... like diving with a competent dive buddy (they do exist, ya know ... ) As for communication, Joe Talavera wrote an excellent article on diver communication ... http://forum.5thd-x.com/viewtopic.php?p=5572#5572 ... the diver who employs this approach to diving isn't likely to experience the sort of problems you describe.

For me this has carried over to diving with a buddy and even a group situation. I do not consider it overconfidence in my abilities or skills. Just that now I think more about how I can get myself out of a jam should a problem happen. To me this translates into being more conscious of my skills, experience, and equipment. As a result I've sought more information, training, and added to my redundant gear list without going crazy and looking like someone who just hit the lottery and went nuts in dive shop. Things I don't think I would have considered as essential or necessary have become second nature to possess or keep handy as a result of diving solo.

Me too ... but that's not unique to the solo diver mindset (which is my point in all of this discussion).

My save a dive kit is one example that has carried over out of the water. Unless I should run into a situation where my reg fails completely and needs rebuilt I can fix most any problem on my own. BTW should this happen I just grab my spare reg setup. I even have a spare BC that could be used should mine develop a leak or whatever. This gear goes with me on every local dive. Travel is a different story but still being more gear conscious means I'm more aware of my stuff. I can always rent an extra bc. But when I go to key largo in May my spare reg is going with me. And I'm putting together a travel save kit to send with my gear. I'm shipping my bc, fins, and suits. Along with some other stuff that's not going into my carry on but I want to have at hand.

My save-a-dive kit comprises two large toolboxes ... one containing repair items and tools, the other containing replacement items, first-aid kit, and my O2 analyzer. In the latter, I typically carry spare mask, gloves, hood, first stage, second stage, primary light, secondary light, spool, SMB, batteries, and a few other odds-n-ends. In the former I carry just about anything I'd need to field-repair a regulator, tank valve, drysuit, or BCD. Again, this is just good preparation for the properly-trained diver ... it's not something that's unique to the solo diver mindset.

And again ... I think y'all are confusing the solo mentality with the self-sufficiency mentality, and they are not self-inclusive.

A buddy is great to have if communication is good and they are able to handle themselves. Some one who cannot communicate effectively and handle themselves in the particular situation and environment is not only inconvenient but also a liability and risk to the team and even the entire group. I'd rather be solo than dive with a trainwreck.

Nobody likes to dive with a trainwreck ... but not all dive buddies are trainwrecks. As an instructor, one of my jobs is to take those who are and help them learn the skills required to become competent dive buddies. It's not that hard, because most divers are quick to realize that developing the skills to be a good dive buddy makes their own diving far more enjoyable, as well as their dive buddy's.

Relating this back to the original scenario ... and to that put forth by Pilot Fish ... a good dive team would not find themselves in these scenarios, because in order to get to that point you will have had to ignore a series of "warning signs" ... any of which should have already resulted in an aborted dive. If you have gotten to the point where you are both OOA, or both incapable of helping either yourselves or each other, you will have violated several of the basic rules that you were supposed to have learned in your basic open water class ... in which case, it won't matter how well-equipped you are, you will have left the most important piece of gear you own back on the beach ... your brain.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

It seems to me that, after six pages of discussion, we can say a couple of things:

1. In the last extremity, a diver with no air and no available source to go to for air must go to the surface or die. That doesn't seem like such a strange concept to me.

2. No matter how well trained you are or how competent you and your buddy are, there can occur circumstances while diving that are beyond the ability of either or both of you to remedy. Such an incident killed Parker Turner (cave in in a cave).

The rest of it seems to boil down to this: If you go diving with the expectation that your team is your redundancy and your team breaks down, will you be able to cope with that? And I would think the answer depends on the severity of the situation. If I'm cave diving and I go through a restriction and it caves in behind me, trapping both of my teammates, and I lose a burst disc at that moment and only have half my remaining air supply and it's not enough to get to the entrance, I'm going to drown. Is that scenario likely enough to make me carry another cylinder on every dive?

We all accept some degree of risk by going underwater. The more risky the environment in which you dive, the higher the degree of redundancy you carry, whether you are diving as a team or not (double tanks, multiple lights, etc.), AND the higher the degree of training you get (or should get) to be able to manage even relatively unlikely degrees of cascading failures -- and more importantly, to AVOID those failures to the extent that they can be avoided. To me, it seems obvious that a teammate or teammates are desirable, as they have additional brains AND hands and mobility that I might not have at the moment of a problem. But, like any resource, teammates are only useful if they are functioning properly -- which means they are there, they are attentive, and they also have the proper equipment and training for the environment in which you all find yourselves.

 

[pilot fish]

Yes, but I think you have to ask yourself how realistic the scenario was and if it wasn't better to deal with it before it ever happened.

Most people who get themselves in deep s**T had ample opportunity to back away and choose not to.

That's not to say that the thread isn't valuable but the value is in discussing how to back away before it's too late.

R..

Sure, it's a bit unrealistic but it did deserve an answer. Again, as you have stated, you first try to avoid that but if you find yourself in that real bad situation it's good to know what your options are.

 

[Diver0001]

Tunnel vision, remember tunnel vision. Get rid of it. Look outside of the tunnel I created and later tried to eliminate.

...snip...

It’s going good but let’s leave the tunnel.

Gary D.

I'm not sure who that was directed at.....

R..

 

[matt_unique]

That's all valid ... however it addresses preparation, not skills. My question was "what skills have you learned strictly as a result of choosing to dive solo?"

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Your question was answered above. Skills are acquired through practice and experience. In this case, practice and experience with a particular mindset and a particular gear configuration.

How do you define skills? Or perhaps more accurately how do you think you acquire skills?

--Matt

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Your question was answered above. Skills are acquired through practice and experience. In this case, practice and experience with a particular mindset and a particular gear configuration.

Perhaps it's a difference in perspective ... to answer your questions, I'll use your previous response ...

Mindset - think about and plan for solving problems on your own. I'm not thinking about what my buddy can do for me or what gear he has to help me solve my problem.

This mindset is not unique to solo diving ... nor does it introduce any requirement for dive planning or preparation that does not exist in the well planned and executed team dive.

I will not do a dive with a buddy that I also do not do solo. A buddy should be a bonus, not a planned means of problem resolution.

That's a personal choice, and I do not see how it relates to skills.

Gear - two reels, two lift bags, two lights, two time/depth devices, two cutting devices, two slates for deco profiles, etc. It takes practice to manage this gear safely. I have had a reel jam while floating a bag (once). I simply reached around to my other side and floated the bag. I did not need to reach for my buddies bag/reel to accomplish my task. Once during a night dive both my buddy and I had flooded lights when we reached the wreck for example. While both examples could be resolved via a buddies gear, this forces a buddy reliance and dimishes gear options by half.

That's all well and good ... but carrying two lift bags does not introduce any unique skill ... deployment is the same, regardless of how many you have. Many of my dive buddies carry redundant surface signalling devices, two time/depth devices, two cutting devices, and multiple communications devices (slates, wet notes, etc). Managing the gear takes practice, sure ... but again, that's not unique to solo diving. For night diving, I routinely carry three lights ... a primary and two backups. So do most of my dive buddies. Why do I do it? Because I've had to deal with losing both a primary and backup light in the past, and it just seems prudent.

None of that has anything to do with buddy reliance. You carry the gear that's appropriate for the type of diving you do ... but the skills to deploy that gear are the same whether you're solo or part of a team.

The only difference I see between the way you dive and the way I dive is that you don't bring a buddy. With respect to how I dive, you seem to be confusing redundancy with dependence ... as I have said, repeatedly now, they are not the same thing.

How do you define skills? Or perhaps more accurately how do you think you acquire skills?

Skills ... dive planning is a skill. Shooting a bag is a skill. Gas management is a skill. Buoyancy control is a skill. Managing your buoyancy while task loaded is a skill. Underwater navigation is a skill. Making judgment calls appropriate to the circumstances one encounters during a dive is an acquired skill. There are others ... but I think you get the idea.

How do you acquire them? Practice ... of course. Do these skills apply only to one type of diving or another? I don't think so.

Solo diving differs from team diving not in the specific skills involved, but in the application of those skills. You correctly (to my concern) identified those applications as being relevent to mindset and gear ... but the skills are the same.

Oh, and FWIW ... you keep dragging DIR into this discussion, when in fact it has nothing to do with DIR. You would find most of what I'm talking about in the NAUI Master Diver manual, as you would in other non-DIR diving publications. So let's not side-track the issue with agency talk, OK?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diver Dennis]

Multiple failures are impossible to plan for.

As I teach my students, don't be OOA and OOB at the same time or you are OOL.

In thousands of dives I have yet to see this scenario. If you don't push your limits (air/depth/time) you will have many years of safe diving. If you constantly fret over "what-ifs" in an open water diving environment, then you should seek professional psychiatric help or stop diving. Diving isn't for everyone and "scubaphobia" is a definite contraindication to participate in this wonderful sport.

This sums everything up for me and my attitude toward diving. Thanks Pete.

 

[TheRedHead]

Which angle in this thread has not been looked at?

 

[pilot fish]

I think getting into a discussion on the merits of solo diving is not what Gary was interested in finding out? Solo diving is something that should not be attempted by divers not trained or equipped for it. New divers, NEVER SOLO DIVE!

 

[Web Monkey]

This bring us back to my favorite topic: Gas Mangement.

In an emergency, what are the chances that with an average pair of 2 recently minted OW divers, the buddy actually has enough gas for both?

Or would there now be 2 OOA divers instead of one?

Terry

GaryD,
The problem with the scenario is that to be in the first situation does require a lot of ineptitude (barring double equipment failure which is sooo unlikely)