Lessons to be learned-Death in Palau

[Thalassamania]

You will not change the number of operators out there that have unsafe practices.

If a diver believes that the operators will keep them safe, the have a high chance of getting in WAY over their heads. It does not matter what is morally right or wrong, it only matters what IS, because you cannot change them. And legally, ...I said, I could be wrong..but I think I would not count on a judgement, if you dive Peleliu and you die.

My comment about "mommy" is that I increasing see divers who really expect to be kept safe doing dives that just cannot be considered safe. Look, you have some uneducated island guy driving you way out to converging currents for a thrill ride. You don't know him. You have no idea how high he is on beetle nut. Somedays, I am not sure he has had enough food to eat, judging from what happens when i bring them food. Their lives are very very difficult and different. They don't give a damn about the coral, because they might not have health care for their kids.

Five-star PADI "something" does not mean anything. That is reality. It means they have paid for a sticker, basically. If you are placing faith on these things, then I am trying to help. I certainly don't mean to force my opinion on anyone.

I care about the reefs and do what I can.

So many people travel and then they want the standards to be like the ones at home. You can work to change the way they are but I don't think we should make dives assuming that the Coast Guard will be picking us up.

Cath, I agree with you ... however<G>.

The issue is that PADI keeps saying safe, safe, safe and then people who believe PADI (rather than you or I) get injured and killed and PADI shows up in court and says (as you just did), "they should know better."

Of course they should know better, but I want to see PADI (and other agencies to a lesser degree) held reponsible (liable) for the lies they tell the public.

 

[Cacia]

yes, I see your point.

 

[Thalassamania]

I think that everyone has a right to go to hell in the hand basket of their own choice, but I get pissed at the guys who want to grease the skids in order to line their own pockets. And I will grant you that sometimes the dividing line is a judgment call that different folks will make differently, and the legality of which will depend upon if it is a comparative or contributory negligence State<G>.

 

[Cacia]

But, Thall, do you think a diver would get a case heard in Amercica's courts if they are in Palau and the operator is Palauan?

I thought no.

I like to travel very much. I do a pretty good job sizing things up and one way I do that is letting go of holding various parties accountable. I hold myself accountable..and when I get screwed, I usually have a voice that echos something I sorta knew I should have done, and did not. It is just a more effective way for me to dive safely. Granted, it doesn't really help anybody else much, as far as the diving community goes.

I would probably say something as constructive as possible upon seeing the coral being mowed down with the reef hooks.

Some of these divers need to understand the scope of the line, a suitable spot for hooking in, etc. The accident and others I am aware of often happen when divers hook in when the current is too strong and then tie themselves off. I use the hook style, attached to the D-ring with a clip but am always confident I can release it against the force of the current. I think the other style is much safer for divers without experience with reefhooks.
Divers in these high speed drifts also need to realize that no matter how excellent and well-meaning a Divemaster is, they cannot swim to you to help help....you are in fact solo-ing whether you like it or not. If you get swept off or get caught and cannot free yourself, nobody down there can do a darn thing to help you.

And what makes it really bad, is that all those sharks are watching! I do so much rather they are watching the group, than just me alone. There are usually at least ten watching the whole fiasco.

I am admitting it can be a huge rush or go very badly.

I am constantly amazed at the people who rely on PADI, but don't take the time to make a conection--or even speak to the boat captain. I need to see he is alert and has a comitted attitude about the importance of spotting us and picking us up.
He is way more important than PADI, back in Rancho Santa Margerita. I say, bring him breakfast, tip early in the week and treat him like he matters.

 

[Diver Dennis]

Cath, I agree with you ... however<G>.

The issue is that PADI keeps saying safe, safe, safe and then people who believe PADI (rather than you or I) get injured and killed and PADI shows up in court and says (as you just did), "they should know better."

Of course they should know better, but I want to see PADI (and other agencies to a lesser degree) held reponsible (liable) for the lies they tell the public.

I'm not so sure I agree Thall. Were you talking about a specific incident? My thought is that I can't sue the government for issuing me a drivers license. I do agree that training levels are not what they used to be but until there are industry wide standards it would be difficult at best to prosecute. It would be virtually impossible in other countries like Mexico or Thailand.
The main problem as I see it are the vast majority of divers who are vacation divers and dive maybe five times a year. They trust the operation they are going out with and do whatever they are told with out question. Smart? Absolutely not but that is the reality in my opinion.

 

[Thalassamania]

But, Thall, do you think a diver would get a case heard in America’s courts if they are in Palau and the operator is Palauan?

I thought no.

Depends, I've seen cases successfully brought against the American Dive Shop, the American Training Agency and the American Dive Tour Company when the accident occurred overseas and the operator was not reachable.

I am constantly amazed at the people who rely on PADI, but don't take the time to make a connection--or even speak to the boat captain. I need to see he is alert and has a committed attitude about the importance of spotting us and picking us up.

He is way more important than PADI, back in Rancho Santa Margarita. I say, bring him breakfast, tip early in the week and treat him like he matters.

You know that, at this stage in your diving. But the PADI line is that all you need to be SAFE (note: safe means without risk) is to look for the PADI seal, or stars or whatever. To the non-diver and new diver this means something (cripes, we've got instructors right here on this board who are under the delusion that it means something). I think that everyone needs to be responsible for their actions and decisions. Diver and Agency alike.

 

[Cacia]

I respect you as much as anyone on this board, so I am listening. Surprised, but listening.

Still, even if I agree with you, how will this make my dive go better?
What, specifically do you want them to do differently?

I realize in three weeks when I go into a Muslim country, there might be a few kinda worked up. If something happens, I won't be on the news griping at the state department. I will say "****, guess that was the wrong call, now what?"

Depends, I've seen cases successfully brought against the American Dive Shop, the American Training Agency and the American Dive Tour Company when the accident occurred overseas and the operator was not reachable.

But, are they really responsible? I have a hard time with suits that are that tangental. (what's a better word?) Suing some other agency just because you can doesn't square with my moral code. I would rather buy illegal software. Everyone's sense of right and wrong, truly fascinates me. I would not feel right about suing them.

 

[Ilikeair]

Catherine,
I think this post of yours sums up your confusion. This is not about you or how a dive operation can "make your dive go better." It is about a business. A business that brings divers to potentially difficult dive sites. A business that is making bold claims about safety, divemaster experience etc. Of course divers are responsible for themselves. Anyone who is reliant on others while diving is crazy. Who is suggesting that? Nobody.

The Palau Aggressor simply does not encourage those who should, the new and inexperienced, to follow basic safety procedures. You think that is fine, I think that a person who is an experienced diver and sees someone who is inexperienced needlessly risking their lives has a moral responsibility to at least say something. Find out if they at least know what they are doing. That was part of my PADI (Yup PADI) training. Simply observing others and in a caring way discussing certain potential safety issues. I said something to the divers who were unintentionally soloing in poor viz. We had a great conversation, we are friends. Why shouldn't we expect the Aggressor to do the same? They knew. Why is it so interesting what the potential liability of foreign owned businesses is? Get over it.

I've already discussed what they could do differently. Oh, one more thing. They could not bring eggs on dives to feed fish and hug them. Yup, hugs! If you need a photo, let me know... If you need a fish hug, see the Aggressor.

 

[Adobo]

Catherine,
I think this post of yours sums up your confusion. This is not about you or how a dive operation can "make your dive go better." It is about a business. A business that brings divers to potentially difficult dive sites. A business that is making bold claims about safety, divemaster experience etc. Of course divers are responsible for themselves. Anyone who is reliant on others while diving is crazy. Who is suggesting that? Nobody.

The Palau Aggressor simply does not encourage those who should, the new and inexperienced, to follow basic safety procedures. You think that is fine, I think that a person who is an experienced diver and sees someone who is inexperienced needlessly risking their lives has a moral responsibility to at least say something. Find out if they at least know what they are doing. That was part of my PADI (Yup PADI) training. Simply observing others and in a caring way discussing certain potential safety issues. I said something to the divers who were unintentionally soloing in poor viz. We had a great conversation, we are friends. Why shouldn't we expect the Aggressor to do the same? They knew. Why is it so interesting what the potential liability of foreign owned businesses is? Get over it.

I've already discussed what they could do differently. Oh, one more thing. They could not bring eggs on dives to feed fish and hug them. Yup, hugs! If you need a photo, let me know... If you need a fish hug, see the Aggressor.

It would be nice if you could simply point a finger at a business and say, "hey, get your act together." Unfortunately, there is plenty of stupidity going around. From the business with bad practices to the open water classes that don't impress the nature of the danger that the diver exposes himself/herself everytime they get in the water. And then of course, there are the divers who suffer from cranial rectumitis. Go hang out anywhere divers hang out and it won't be long before you are regaled with stories of all kinds of heroics and adventure.

In my home area, one of the most notorious dive sites is a placed called Monastery Beach. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked by new dive buddies to go to Monastery for a first time dive. To look at the shortcomings of PADI and dive operators is only a portion of the picture. To me, the most important part of the picture is self preservation. Like Catherine says, divers need to come to a point where they have an honest assessment of their capabilities as a diver. No amount of morality and ethics by either a dive operator or PADI is ever going to save a diver from stupidity. Those businesses and agencies often targetted for poor ethics, morals and business practices are still around. Why? Because divers like you and me continue to patronize them.

 

[Ben_ca]

"Stupid's supposed to hurt"

RR