Lessons to be learned-Death in Palau

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Dive waivers have been held generally enforceable in the State of Florida.

IANAL, but most of these situations will arise under various state jurisdictions, and what "works" in one state often does not in another. YMMV and all that.
 
Genesis once bubbled...
Dive waivers have been held generally enforceable in the State of Florida.

IANAL, but most of these situations will arise under various state jurisdictions, and what "works" in one state often does not in another. YMMV and all that.

As far as I understand it the waivers basically make it so that you will lose any suit UNLESS there was gross negligence.

I think almost all of them settle out of court anyway.
 
Just looked at the waiver that needs to be executed to dive with PHD in Palau. As I suspected, everything that can be signed away more than likely was - -

http://www.peterhughes.com/PDF Files/New Waiver - Sun.pdf

Look in particular at bullets #3 and #4

"and I agree that this Waiver Agreement extends to all acts of negligence by Releasees including, but not limited to
negligent rescue operations and is intended to be as broad and inclusive as permitted by the laws governing the Province or State or Country in which the Activities are conducted."

If the dive operator owes no duty to its clients, what are people paying them for to begin with?
 
kevink once bubbled...
Just looked at the waiver that needs to be executed to dive with PHD in Palau. As I suspected, everything that can be signed away more than likely was - -

http://www.peterhughes.com/PDF Files/New Waiver - Sun.pdf

Look in particular at bullets #3 and #4

"and I agree that this Waiver Agreement extends to all acts of negligence by Releasees including, but not limited to
negligent rescue operations and is intended to be as broad and inclusive as permitted by the laws governing the Province or State or Country in which the Activities are conducted."

If the dive operator owes no duty to its clients, what are people paying them for to begin with?

It doesn't matter what the waiver says. IF there is gross negligence they'll probably win the case anyway.

The reason most operators have these waivers is to keep people from suing in the first place, and anyway, 99% of these suits are brought by people (or more often their families) who were themselves negligent.
 
As far as I understand it the waivers basically make it so that you will lose any suit UNLESS there was gross negligence.

I think almost all of them settle out of court anyway.

At least in Florida, as I understand it, the waivers (as I've seen and had to sign them) release to the fullest extent permissible by law, including negligence and some even attempt to release gross negligence.

The line has been drawn in a few cases, however, where a diver was run over by the dive boat. That was found to be not part of the reasonably-forseen set of risks that could be released, as it was not explicitly "diving related".

At least as I understand it in Florida, if you are diving with a commercial op and sign the release (and you won't dive if you don't) then anything that has to do with the actual diving is released. If you are run over by the captain of the boat your heirs can probably sue and get somewhere. Short of that, forget about it.

IANAL and all that once again.
 
Genesis once bubbled...


At least in Florida, as I understand it, the waivers (as I've seen and had to sign them) release to the fullest extent permissible by law, including negligence and some even attempt to release gross negligence.

The line has been drawn in a few cases, however, where a diver was run over by the dive boat. That was found to be not part of the reasonably-forseen set of risks that could be released, as it was not explicitly "diving related".

At least as I understand it in Florida, if you are diving with a commercial op and sign the release (and you won't dive if you don't) then anything that has to do with the actual diving is released. If you are run over by the captain of the boat your heirs can probably sue and get somewhere. Short of that, forget about it.

IANAL and all that once again.


Well, if the operators are going to get sued for all kinds of stuff they'll basically go out of business. When I board a boat, I expect them to take me to the dive site, and not leave until I am back on board. I also expect them not to run me over or anything like that. That's it.

Now, if someone is going to rely on a DM from the boat to hold their hand, IMO that person has no business doing the dive in the first place. Learn how to dive.

I dive in challenging conditions, and I decide when to go diving and when to call it. If it weren't for the releases I'm sure there would be no boats taking people out here in Central CA. Conditions are often rough, and the diving is in cold water with sometimes very limited visibility. Who in their right mind would take responsibility for you in that situation, if they don't know how well you've been trained?

What is criminal, IMO, is not the waiver, but the fact that most of these operations probably present an attitude that makes the divers feel that someone WILL hold their hands.

Just my .02, and IANAL either.
 
Braunbehrens once bubbled...


Now, if someone is going to rely on a DM from the boat to hold their hand, IMO that person has no business doing the dive in the first place. Learn how to dive.

I am not advocating we head out an sue at will. I am sure that would destroy this sport quicker than even government regulation (I can see the attorneys salivating now, they are on the bottom just to the left of the other sharks).

I just think there is a basic duty of the Guide and Boat Captain to determine if a site is fit to dive on a particular day. This is true much more so in travel destinations than in local diving.

If you have experience locally you can make your own determination, if you lack local experience what will you use to substitute for it? Would you assume the waters off of Palau are the same as S. Florida, The Caymans, Bonaire, or Cozumel? Should everyone hop in the water to survey the underwater currents before they decide if they are ready for this? I think we place a lot of reliance on the impressions of the Guide and Driver (who owe us NO DUTY it seems)? I agree there is a lot of 'TRUST ME' dives being performed everyday.

I agree the guide is not there to help you dive. There are basics (and advanced skills) that you as a certified diver should have under control (with your buddy).

When you throw in a large group, choppy surface, high current, and reef hooks, I doubt everyone in that group was ready for this experience on their second day in strange waters.

Reef Hooks - -

The more I think about reef hooks, the crazier it seems to me, and I was a big proponent in this thread. You are willingly going to the bottom (40' - 60') and entangling yourself. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about this. When properly used, you are entagled. You would also have an interesting time trying to squirm out of your gear while it is entangled with high current. If this is a skill someone practices please let me know "The High Current Entanglement Bailout".

Once you clip the reef hook on to your BC and hook onto the reef you are tethered. You need to remove pressure from the line to be able to unclip. Today was looking for quick release D-Rings and playing around with exploding knots (Sliding butterfly) but nothing seemed to be user friendly in a panic situation. The T-bar idea in this thread may be the only way to safely enjoy this experience.
 
John C. Ratliff once bubbled...


I am not a lawyer, and cannot comment on international law at all (which would apply here). But I have some experience in the safety field within the United States, and here a person simply cannot sign away their right to sue. Those releases are only worth something as a deterrent to having someone file a suit in the first place, and not worth much once someone gets into court. Maybe someone who has law experience, especially for international law, could also comment on this.

SeaRat

I am a lawyer and I work mostly in the field of civil litigation, in business disputes and injury cases.

The idea that you cannot sign away your right to sue in the United Staes is not correct.

Before I go any further, understand that enforceability of waivers of this type is almost always a matter of state, not federal law. That means that the law concerning enforceability of waivers, in general, is different in every state. Some states will not enforce these waivers as a matter of public policy. However, such waivers are enforceable in many states.

Michigan, where I live is one of those states. Not long ago, the Michigan appellate courts had to deal with a general written waiver signed by a woman who had to sign it as a condition of joining a health club. The language of the waiver in essence released the club for any injury she received on the premises. She was seriously injured when a mirror on the wall came loose and fell on her while she was stretching on the floor. She argued that the waiver should not protect the club from liability for such things as defects in the structure of the building, as opposed to the expected dangers of using or being near exercise equipment. The Michigan court ruled that the waiver meant what it said - it released the club from every type of liability for every type of injury, from every cause, and that was that. As a matter of contract, if she didn't want to sign away her right to sue, she could go and exercise somewhere else.

So, such general waivers can be and are broadly enforced, at least somewhere in the United States. I am sure Michigan is not the only state where this is true.

I do not know if such waivers are enforceable in other countries. I suspect there are places where they are strictly enforced.

In places where the waivers are broadly enforced, you would be barred from suing, even if the boat ran you over or left you behind, as long as they did it by accident. If they purposely injured or abandoned you, that would amount to criminal behavior, and brings up entirely different issues.
 
kevink once bubbled...

Once you clip the reef hook on to your BC and hook onto the reef you are tethered. You need to remove pressure from the line to be able to unclip. Today was looking for quick release D-Rings and playing around with exploding knots (Sliding butterfly) but nothing seemed to be user friendly in a panic situation. The T-bar idea in this thread may be the only way to safely enjoy this experience.

The large squeeze clips used as belt buckles with nylon webbing would probably work OK (they'll release under pressure if you squeeze them). However, the whole concept of being stationary in a fast moving current strikes me as dangerous.

I wouldn't like to b hit in the head with whatever happens to be whizzing by.
 
Well, I definitely think reef hooks are dangerous, and I just plain wouldn't do it. If you HAVE to for some reason do something like this, I would definitely not hook in to my gear, but simply hold it with my hand. At least you can let go.
 

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